The Violence Is Rooted in the Culture, Not the Gun Store

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ZeSpectre

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Seems like he -almost- gets it... but not quite <sigh>.


The Violence Is Rooted in the Culture, Not the Gun Store

By Courtland Milloy
Wednesday, August 29, 2007; Page B01

Not long ago, I brought my gun to Realco Guns in District Heights for cleaning. It is a vintage, J.C. Higgins .22-caliber rifle that my dad purchased from Sears around 1964. We belonged to a father-and-son club in my home town, Shreveport, La., and this was the gun we used whenever the group went out to shoot at tin cans.

In the middle of so much gun violence, it's not easy to cling to fond memories of those days.

During my visit to Realco, several young African American men were checking out large-caliber firearms in a display case. I asked some of them why they wanted a gun.

"Protection," one replied.

"You never know who you might run into," another said.

Nobody mentioned shooting tin cans with Dad.

A protest rally was held outside the gun store yesterday. It turns out that Realco, according to federal data, is the Washington region's biggest source of firearms used in crimes. Apparently guns purchased legally from the store have been resold to or stolen by people who aren't supposed to have them. So several dozen protesters gathered to chant: "Stop the violence! Save the children!" Some even believed that forcing Realco out of business would help to accomplish those things.

"Since I became mayor, getting rid of guns and closing down this store have been high on my list of priorities," District Heights Mayor James Walls told me at the rally. "They've got to come to us for business permits, and we'll be taking a close look at their role in the gun violence that is killing so many of our people."

Realco declined to comment, but an employee released a statement declaring that all its firearms sales are legal and follow procedures set by the FBI and the Maryland State Police.

The protest was organized by the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, founded by the Rev. Jesse Jackson. Not far away, gun advocates staged a counter-protest to decry the dropping of murder charges in cases in which witnesses were too afraid to testify.

"Stop [expletive] and start snitching," one yelled into a loudspeaker.

Not the best way to make a case for gun rights. But the gun-control folks have their shortcomings, too.

someone read a statement from Jackson urging "gun shops and gun manufacturers to stop the epidemic of rising gun violence."

Excuse me, but I just don't see why any black person would expect gun manufacturers and dealers to help us stop killing ourselves. At Realco, guys pull into the parking lot in big SUVs with tinted glass and spinning rims. They look like gangbangers from a rap music video. If some gun-control advocates had their way, Realco would reject those young black men as customers because they fit a racial profile. And Realco would be sued for not selling guns as surely as it was denounced yesterday for selling them.

And go to any major gun show -- into the heart of America's white gun culture -- and you'll find plenty of Confederate flags and supremacist literature on display. And even if everybody at the show doesn't subscribe to those views, the people there aren't offended enough to stay away.

This fight is not so much over guns as culture. Largely rural, conservative whites are protecting a gun-loving lifestyle because they care more about it than they care about the loss of black lives to gun violence in urban areas. And if you want to fight that culture, you have to have a culture to fight with.

"In my honest opinion, I'm not so concerned about the prevalence of guns," said Kenny Barnes, founder of a D.C.-based anti-gun violence campaign called Guns Aside. "Violence isn't the issue; it's a symptom. It's the result of too many dysfunctional households, failing schools, drug and alcohol abuse and a saturation of music that promotes self-destruction."

Daniel Webster, co-director of the Center for Gun Policy and Research at Johns Hopkins University, argues that rebuilding a culture, strengthening communities and families, is much harder when guns are in the mix.

"It used to be the case that adults in the community would not feel restrained if they saw teenagers getting into trouble, doing things that they shouldn't," he told me during a recent interview. "Now that doesn't occur because people are afraid that the youngsters are carrying guns. Guns have taken away what for centuries has been an effective means of social control. You can ask for greater involvement by concerned citizens, mentors, parents and teachers, but that becomes very difficult to do when the person causing the trouble has a gun."

Unless, perhaps, you have one, too.

The rifle that my dad bought in '64 was probably as much for home defense as for target practice. But protection is not why I wanted the gun. Realco made it look like new, and I plan to mount it as a showpiece, a reminder of the days when kids shot tin cans instead of one another.

E-mail:[email protected]
 
He, Courtland Milloy, sounds like a fence sitter. I read the whole thing and aside from it being a possible personal rant, I see no solid point to his article.
It really sounds like he is giving up.
I hope he owns some other form of personal protection, because talking down criminals rarely works.
Of course this is just my opinion.
 
You can ask for greater involvement by concerned citizens, mentors, parents and teachers, but that becomes very difficult to do when the person causing the trouble has a gun."

Unless, perhaps, you have one, too.

Isn't that what the founding fathers wanted in a nutshell?

The entire violence issue boils down to a lack of respect for others rights, liberties and property. Guns have nothing to do with violence. When you don't respect others, or they don't respect you, it's a problem, period.

As for gun shows, I too have a foul taste in my mouth regarding all the items that can be construed as having racist undertones. Particularly that rebel flag. Sure, a lot of that culture was not about slavery, but that's what most of the people not from the South (like myself) envision when we see that flag.

That's not why I stay away from gunshows though, after the first one, I realized it was just a flea market that happened to have guns.
 
It used to be the case that adults in the community would not feel restrained if they saw teenagers getting into trouble, doing things that they shouldn't," he told me during a recent interview. "Now that doesn't occur because people are afraid that the youngsters are carrying guns.

I think this may be my favorite part. The people I know are afraid to deal with unruly kids and teens not because they might get shot, but because they fear getting sued by the parents of said teens. Maybe we need some Lawyer control? Maybe we should all set up protest marches against parents who produce these homicidal teens?
 
"Violence isn't the issue; it's a symptom. It's the result of too many dysfunctional households, failing schools, drug and alcohol abuse and a saturation of music that promotes self-destruction."

This is a statement that any level-headed person can agree with. However...

Largely rural, conservative whites are protecting a gun-loving lifestyle because they care more about it than they care about the loss of black lives to gun violence in urban areas.

White people don't care about black people....:scrutiny: Sigh. Gun crime can affect any of us, white, black, yellow, purple, at any time. This is why law-abiding citizens want the ability to protect themselves. It's not a race issue, and to make it look like one denies the real problem. That some people seem to think that a life of raping, killing, stealing, and/or drugs, is an acceptable way of living their life.

I'm writing the person now with my opinion.
 
And go to any major gun show -- into the heart of America's white gun culture -- and you'll find plenty of Confederate flags and supremacist literature on display
I would argue the heart of America's "gun culture" is found, rather, on the firing line of any one of this country's many shooting ranges, or even on forums such as the one we're all a part of. But it's just so much easier for halfwits like Courtland Milloy to trot out the same old rhetoric about Confederate flags at gun shows. YMMV, but I've read some of his other columns and he's about as close to "getting it" as the Sabine is to the Rio Grande.
 
And go to any major gun show -- into the heart of America's white gun culture -- and you'll find plenty of Confederate flags and supremacist literature on display. And even if everybody at the show doesn't subscribe to those views, the people there aren't offended enough to stay away.

Haven't seen any at any show I have been to, even down here in the South. Nazi stuff, sure goes with the WWII interest, but I haven't seen any white supremacist stuff. Maybe a Confederate flag back in the 70's or 80's, but not in the last 20 years or so. Or maybe I just never noticed--too busy looking at the guns.
Guess I go to all the wrong shows (though I suspect this individual has probably never been to a gun show).
 
I have to agree about the literature.

While I've only been to gun shows in MS and LA, I HAVE been going to them since the mid-1980's.

I have NEVER seen any White Supremists, or any such literature at a gun show.


As odd as it is to say in MS, I really don't recall seeing any Confederate Flags. You see FAR more of those for sell at T-Shirt Shops and such than I've ever seen at a gun show.


Frankly, I didn't care for the picture he attempted to paint of the gun culture and "America's White Heartland."


He is correct when he says:

"In my honest opinion, I'm not so concerned about the prevalence of guns," said Kenny Barnes, founder of a D.C.-based anti-gun violence campaign called Guns Aside. "Violence isn't the issue; it's a symptom. It's the result of too many dysfunctional households, failing schools, drug and alcohol abuse and a saturation of music that promotes self-destruction."



But this bothers me:

Daniel Webster, co-director of the Center for Gun Policy and Research at Johns Hopkins University, argues that rebuilding a culture, strengthening communities and families, is much harder when guns are in the mix.


SO WHAT? There are plenty of things that are hard to do, but that does not mean that WE lose our rights to accomplish it.

My community and family are fine. Leave me out of your "re-building" plans if stomping Rights is part of it. I don't break it, and neither did anyone I know.


-- John
 
Yeah, WE should lose OUR rights, regardless of our actions, because others refuse to act as citizens. It is their responsibility to act as citizens, not ours to give up our rights. It is a backwards racism that says we must get rid of guns because a certain part of society is too dumb or incapable of self-control to have them present. That is every bit as racist as saying that blacks cannot perform in school because they are just not smart enough. It is absurd and if I were a black man I would be hugely insulted by it. In my part of Mississippi, the social mix is close to 50-50. There is a large black middle class that is every bit the citizenry as any other mix. And even among the poor, there are a large number of very respectable, upright, honest and moral people. Indeed, in our area, the white trash is an equal proportion to the white population as the badguys in the black population. The percentage is too high in any case, but certainly is not really any different among the races.

Of course, we are rural down here and a great percentage of the folks I know are rural. I know of a nice old lady who keeps a 38 on her side because she lives in the woods. Her entire family are upstanding and respectable. I am sure the would be insulted at that elitist argument.

Ash
 
Haven't seen any at any show I have been to, even down here in the South. Nazi stuff, sure goes with the WWII interest, but I haven't seen any white supremacist stuff. Maybe a Confederate flag back in the 70's or 80's, but not in the last 20 years or so. Or maybe I just never noticed--too busy looking at the guns.
Guess I go to all the wrong shows (though I suspect this individual has probably never been to a gun show).
I always see copies of The Turner Diaries and similar crap at gunshows here in Ohio. Usually, there's no more than that book and its equally inane sequel.

The neo-Nazi National Alliance used to show up at gunshows in the area, but they got booted more than ten years ago. Besides, those types are usually too busy fighting with each other and getting busted for kiddie porn to amount to much anyway.

I see more Black patrons and vendors at shows every year.
 
Yeah, WE should lose OUR rights, regardless of our actions, because others refuse to act as citizens. It is their responsibility to act as citizens, not ours to give up our rights. It is a backwards racism that says we must get rid of guns because a certain part of society is too dumb or incapable of self-control to have them present.
Actually, that's just plain racism.

I've been savaging anti-gunners in usenet for nearly twenty years for their racism. The sheer CONTEMPT for Black people expressed by anti-gunners is simply astonishing. Black people are treated no better than animals. The rhetoric is often indistinguishable from that of the most extreme White supremacist groups. Blacks are at BEST treated like naughty children, incapable of controlling their own behavior. A lot of the White anti-gunners just want to be OBEYED. If you're Black and want to have racial slurs hurled at you, just refuse to support oppressive gun controls when a White anti-gunner tells you to. Strangely, all of this over the top racism is termed "politically incorrect" by the White anti-gunners who perpetrate it. I've also seen an oddly cordial relationship between some White anti-gunners and neo-Nazis in usenet. While some of this is based in the psychopathologies of individual anti-gunners, a lot of it is based on a fear of Black people, especially Black people who can't easily be bullied.
 
Deanimator wrote:

Yeah, WE should lose OUR rights, regardless of our actions, because others refuse to act as citizens. It is their responsibility to act as citizens, not ours to give up our rights. It is a backwards racism that says we must get rid of guns because a certain part of society is too dumb or incapable of self-control to have them present.

Actually, that's just plain racism.


Deanimator,

To clarify, are you saying the above referenced quote was racist?


If so, I respectfully disagree with you. The referenced poster did not mention any particular racial quotient in that statement.


The problems we have in our culture is not an issue of race. It is an issue of culture. A lot of people equate an attack on violence-glorifying culture such as what we see a lot in the hip-hop and rap community as an attack on a race.

This equation shys people away from addressing the issues we face in culture. People are afraid to say anything for fear of being labled as something they aren't.


Glorification of violence in our society is not a "black" thing as much as the media would like to portray it as such.

I've told this story before, and I'll tell it again.

The night before I moved from Orlando, I was headed to a friend's house for a "going-away" get-together. I pulled up to a stoplight on Hwy 436 in Maitland. Thinking of all the things I needed to do the next day, I was starring off into space and my eyes fixiated on a "Home Depot" sign off to the left.

Out of the corner of my eye, I see a man in the passenger seat of the car next to me waving his arms and screaming something out the window. I had the radio up so I didn't hear him.

The guy was wearing an oversized Orlando Magic Starter Jersey, had a hat on sideways, wore tons of gold chains and I think he had a gold front tooth. He had a bandana wrapped around his head under his side-ways hat. All the time he is screaming, he is moving his hands through some kind of gestures like he is trying to do little gang signs or something idiotic like that.

I motioned for him to hold on and started to cut down the radio. When I cut it down and ask what he wants, he responds "Quit looking at us, [explitive]!

This surprised me, and I calmly pointed out that I wasn't looking at him- I was staring off into space. But I furthered that if I WERE looking at him, it's a free country.

This prompted the guy to get out of the car and try to pull me out the window of my jeep. Naturally, I just rolled it up. Unfortuantely, the idiot starts beating on my window and I figure it will break in a minute.

Bear in mind, the light is STILL red, and there are cars in front of each of us. I couldn't really drive off.

I roll the window back down and he reaches in to grap my throat. This is the point that I level my Glock 19 in his face. He screams and literally dives through the window of the car he was in. They swerve off the road, and run through the red-light --almost causing a wreck.


Since then guy screamed about a gun, I decided I should wait for the police that was inevitably called. They got statements and one witness got the tag number for them. They sent an unit to the home of the father of his girlfriend (turns out that it was registered to a Dr.)


Interesting thing about this story? The wanna-be gangster with all the bling and hip-hop clothes was a skinny white guy.



What is going on in our culture that so many of us are fed up with has nothing to do with race. It has to do with societal messages, cultures and attitudes.

I really don't care WHAT race the majority of this trend is. It is the actions and attitudes we have a problem with. The problem is that if the majority of the trend IS constituted from one minority group or the other-- or if the media has portrayed it as primarily indicitive of one race, a person is considered a racist for criticizing it or having concerned over it.

-- John
 
Well the problem that would solve all the gun crimes being comited isn't gun controls its the end of drug prohibition. Most of their criminals grow up in the slums with a drug addict parent that wont feed them and steals their money. When they get old enough to roam around they are told that every problem in their life is caused by the evil white man. Then they get older and the clever idea to rob their local drug dealers is implanted in their mind. So they rob them and then later on the drug dealer finds them and they get their head splattered on the sidewalk. I bet this is the exact cituation behind 50% of drug murders.
 
It is about the knuckleheads, crackheads, and hotheads. Always has been. Always will be.
Never will be shortage of any of them.
 
Deanimator wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, WE should lose OUR rights, regardless of our actions, because others refuse to act as citizens. It is their responsibility to act as citizens, not ours to give up our rights. It is a backwards racism that says we must get rid of guns because a certain part of society is too dumb or incapable of self-control to have them present.

Actually, that's just plain racism.

Deanimator,

To clarify, are you saying the above referenced quote was racist?


If so, I respectfully disagree with you. The referenced poster did not mention any particular racial quotient in that statement.

I didn't read it that way, no...I read it that he was saying that "backward racism" is plain old racism. IOW, racism is racism regardless of the color of the individual being slammed.

Re: supremacist stuff at gun shows....the only thing I've seen at the ones I go to here in Houston are T-shirts. There's a vendor that has shirts at all the shows, and one of them has Klansmen on it with the text: The Original "Boys In Da Hood". Gag me with a maggot. Never seen any literature like that, though.

Springmom
 
I too believe the author is a fence sitter, but remember most of America is too. Most people take in what they hear, good and bad about firearms and form opinions based on that. When it comes to guns, people think of young black thugs, and toothless racist hicks...its up to me to show them another side.
Jessie Jackson's "people" (professional victims) are never the problem-clearly its the violent guns, and racist hurricaines that are responsible. City officials who say different dont get elected, plain and simple.
When people take responsibility and get real people like Jessie go away, but for now hes got a niche market, pandering to victims.
 
To clarify, are you saying the above referenced quote was racist?
Re-read what I wrote. What he referred to is just racism; there's no "backwards" to it.

All of my specific criticisms were of actual anti-gun racists, not him.
 
ZeSpectre wrote:
I think this may be my favorite part. The people I know are afraid to deal with unruly kids and teens not because they might get shot, but because they fear getting sued by the parents of said teens. Maybe we need some Lawyer control? Maybe we should all set up protest marches against parents who produce these homicidal teens?


You hit the nail on the head there.

Also, school officials are not allowed to get "tough" with our little angels, even when they are acting like little devils. I saw our Assistant Principal, who was also the high school wrestling coach, drop a guy on the floor in one quick movement and pin him down. That can't happen today.

The youth know that they are protected now, legally, from adults other than their parents doing anything to or about them when they are misbehaving. That's where the attitudes come from.

Also, what has happened to the parents. Instead of whipping their own kids into shape, they complain about how their little thugs are such good kids and don't deserve to be mistreated by the school officials and law enforcement. I can't count the number of times I've seem some stupid lady on TV expressing disbelief that her little boy could have killed, execution style, someone else. "He's always been such a good boy. He's never been in any trouble". What? Put the drugs and/or alcohol away and pay attention to what your little thugs are up to. The rest of us would greatly appreciate it.

Then, these same moms turn around and try to get guns banned because their "good" son either shot someone or got shot by another thug. It drives me nuts. :banghead:
 
During my visit to Realco, several young African American men were checking out large-caliber firearms in a display case. I asked some of them why they wanted a gun.

1) Did they say they were from Africa? If not, hes being racist...Not all BLACK people are from Africa, get your head out of your butt.

2) Its none of your D*** business what they need it for.
 
During my visit to Realco, several young African American men were checking out large-caliber firearms in a display case. I asked some of them why they wanted a gun.

"Protection," one replied.

"You never know who you might run into," another said.

Nobody mentioned shooting tin cans with Dad.


I wonder if the author would have asked them that question had they been several young Scandinavian American men, like me. (OK, I'm not so young anymore). I can hear their response; "Ja, ve yust vant to half sum guns to shoot cans vit, den. Ve are luuking for sumtink vich vill make a huuge buum and blow da cans to kingdom cum, doncha know".

Who said you have to buy any guns to shoot cans with Dad? I've bought a whole bunch of guns that I've shot while being with my dad, but not at cans. I have some guns that I've never shot with my Dad. So what? That line about shooting tins cans with Dad is just sappy in my opinion, even though I used to do that with my dad at the local dump with our .22's. We also used to shoot rats, but don't tell anyone from PETA.

The author is letting a little bit of racism leak out here, I believe. Why was it necessary to tell us the race of the youths? Why did he feel the need to ask them anything regarding the reasons they were looking at guns? I am wondering if this isn't something he just made up, at least in part. I don't know the author, so how am I to know that he's 100% credible? Does he make a habit of going around and putting his nose into other peoples' business? Maybe he does.
 
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