Really old fired brass: Safe to load?

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Ray P

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Neighbor asked my to help sort through a few boxes of his father's shooting stuff laying around since the '60s and early '70s. Most of it was shotgun and centerfire reloading stuff (Pacific, Herters, Lachmiller, etc). There are around 17 pounds of 22-250, 30-30, 38 Spl, 41 Mag and 7mm Mag brass. Most of it from the old boxes looked ok, but the stuff from the old coffee cans is very badly tarnished.

Is cartridge brass that has been sitting around 50-60 years safe to reload?

When did we stop using corrosive ammo and primers in commercial ammo and ammo components for reloading?
 
crush one with a pair of pliers and see if it bends or breaks. brass softens with age, but the corrosion you have is a game changer.

luck,

murf
 
One should not use components which are not clearly identifiable, or are of an unknown composition or provenance.... According to the NRA teachers course, anyway.

With that said....

Black oxidization tarnish is purely cosmetic.

Blue oxidization is leaching metals, and is structurally unsound. If you tumble it, and the blue spots turn coppery looking- those cases are done.

Cartridge metallurgy has changed considerably over the decades, but if the necks size and unsize without breaking, they should be serviceable for at least one use.

Now, if this is some old handloaders scrap stash, only god knows what is contained in the "number of times fired" category, and i'd be very skeptical. This is likely whats in the coffee cans, and Id probably scrap it. Without direct observation, we're doing "Dentistry over the telephone" here, however.

If these are once fired pieces of brass, Particularly in old boxes, I'd load up and fire away. Its "new to you" components, so you'll be doing load workup from square one anyway, riiiiiight ?


When did we stop using corrosive ammo and primers in commercial ammo and ammo components for reloading?

In some brands ( primarily eastern bloc, but there are exceptions) corrosive primers are still used. Corrosive berdan primers have a much longer usable shelf life than noncorrosive boxer, and as such are often the forefront of milsurp combloc ammo dumps and repackages *cough* herters.. ZQ *cough*

Unless you have some neat vintage components, you are unlikely to find any corrosive reloading primers, unless you are buying com-bloc military surplus berdan primers.
 
3394c38bbaa163c7abb1dad94f4c0e2d.jpg

Was in a similar situation when I happened across this guy. Not sure if that's a date headstamp or what.


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...but the stuff from the old coffee cans is very badly tarnished.

Please explain what you mean by badly tarnished. A photograph would help.

Tarnish is simply surface oxidation of the brass. The copper oxidizes and turns the color from golden yellow to brown. The brown oxidation protects the metal below the surface and so is not a problem. In my opinion, a general rule would be that if you can make the brass golden-yellow again by tumbling, soaking in a weak acid solution (like vinegar, 2 ounces per quart of water, or Lemishine, 1 teaspoon per quart of water) or manually using a polish like Brasso, the brass should be fine.

I am still reloading .223 cases that bear an LC69 or TW69 headstamp.

Corrosion is another issue entirely. Brass tarnishes to a brown color but corrodes to a blue-green color. It is a more involved degree of oxidation and generally goes beyond just the surface. If you have corroded brass, I would assume the structure of the case has been compromised. If you have experience working with non-ferrous metals, you may feel compfortable trying to establish the depth of the corrosion and rehabilitate the cases, but I would recommend that corroded brass be discarded.

In my view, it's a lot cheaper to replace a corroded case than rebuild a hand or face damaged by a catastrophic case failure.
 
Don't use Brasso. The ammonia in it is not good for the brass.

I just recently came across a large batch of old Remington-UMC 7.62x54R loaded ammo where the brass is starting to turn pink in places. Some of the worst cases have something almost like a cancerous growth on top of the pink. One of the cases actually had part of the neck missing (along with no projectile and no powder left it in).

Now if a case is just turning black and looks ugly? I just load them up and shoot them. I've got some black 308s that have been shot and cleaned 6 times and the passes through the tumbler are actually starting to turn them back towards a nice golden color again. If there is blue-green corrosion I just rub them case with an alcohol wipe real quick. If the corrosion comes off and there is no mark on the underlying surface, I look at it as good. If the alcohol wipe doesn't take the corrosion off or if the corrosion looks like it has gotten into the surface of the case, it goes into the scrap bin.

Chris
 
I've got some unfired Western Cartridge Company .308 Win match cases (headstamp WCC 60) that's as good as when new if fired. Shot some of that stuff in the late 1990's without issues. Same for some of that same stuff made in 1958 (WCC 58) that had corrosive primers in live ammo, but they were removed along with bullet and powder before reloading. They, too, are good as when new.

I don't think brass softens with age.
 
Thanks, guys!
If my neighbor wishes to put the time in, he can sort out a couple of pounds each of previously fired 22-250, 30-30; and a few 7mm Mag, but he wouldn't be reloading himself. He's looking to see if it is something he could sell. I guess I'll stand with the advise I gave him yesterday: scrap it all.

Pretty much the same story for the two boxes of paper 12 gauge shells. For that, at least I do have a photo

IMAG0807.jpg

Also, some neat old cans:
IMAG0805.jpg
 
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Ray P said:
Is cartridge brass that has been sitting around 50-60 years safe to reload?
Well, I'm reloading 45acp brass with 1941 & 42 headstamps, and ~15 years ago I shot up some mil-surp with 1920's headstamps (probably should have kept those), so age isn't the issue. Some of the '40s brass I have is a bit "springy", and won't hold a FMJ very well (I have some Aguila from the 90's with the same issue, again, not an age thing). Anyway, those get loaded up with MB IDP #4s, which works great, and I don't sweat losing them in the weeds.
 
Don't use Brasso. The ammonia in it is not good for the brass.

While prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ammonia can cause a chemical reaction with the copper in the brass (or any other copper or copper alloy for that matter) that will result in stress cracking (often referred to as "season cracking"), the concentration of ammonia in Brasso is low enough and exposure times short enough that there shouldn't be much of a concern about causing structural damage to an otherwise sound brass case. Still if anyone does have any concerns about the use of a polish like Brasso, the potential effects can be mitigated by simply washing the brass in hot water as the cuprammonium formed by the exposure to ammonia is water soluble.

Now maybe my experiences are anomalous, but between 1976 and 1983, I took hundreds of rounds of .30 M1 Carbine brass whose headstamps say they were made during World War II (i.e. WCC43) or Korea (LC53), polished them repeatedly with Brasso, and then loaded and fired them repeatedly and starting 1983 when I retired my M1 Carbine and got one chambered for 5.7mm Johnson, took those same cases, cold formed them into bottleneck cartridges and fired, reloaded and fired again. Now, while a "paperclip test" shows that some are starting to stretch too much in the head area (probably shoulder set too far back), absolutely none of the have shown any evidence of season cracking.
 
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Save those powder containers even if the powder is no good .... which it may be ...

The IMR 4064 and the SR4759 cans are from the early 1950's. I would not shoot gunpowder that old.

Corrosion and corrosive environments are the greatest danger to brass cases, in my opinion. Heat is obvious but the ammonia compounds in the air, not so obvious. This was noted by an earlier poster.

Incidentally, the information that is available online is just amazing. There are a whole bunch of Corrosion guides at this web site:

Corrosion Guides
: http://www.npl.co.uk/science-techno...rrosion-service/publications/corrosion-guides

I was looking for this guide, because it had information on brass season cracking:

Stress Corrosion Cracking:

http://resource.npl.co.uk/docs/scie...als/publications/online_guides/pdf/stress.pdf

If the brass is not exposed to corrosive compounds it ought to last, basically, forever. However given that silver tarnishes now due to all the sulphur compounds in the air, when in ancient times it did not, should be a clue there are a lot more nasty chemicals in the air than their used to be. Murf had good advice about seeing if a case breaks easily. If the material is ductile, tumble and load. I am still using 30-06 RA54 cases that I purchased new in the 80's. They had been in their Remington boxes and every primer went bang.

You can examine the interior of cases and see if there is corrosion or pitting with a flashlight. I would be cautious about cases with corrosion on the inside.

I would have nothing to do with those paper hull shotgun shells. The old timers who used that stuff always had a story about someone's barrel that blew because a paper case separated from the brass and got half way up the barrel.
 
My SR9c had a blow out a couple weeks ago, my first. I was shooting off a handful of rounds that a guy gave me with numerous other old stuff. The culprit was a rusty, Aquila, brass. The few other USA rounds were ok.It looked like no case support.
 
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