Reason for owning?
- Thread starter halfded
- Start date
- Status
Arkady
Member
Yes. I've seen several approved forms with 'hearing protection' listed.
Also, there is a guy on Ar15.com that has an approved form with "****s and giggles" listed on it.
But... I use "All Lawful Purposes"
LiquidTension
Member
I've used "all lawful purposes" on the last two I did. My first one says "quiet target practice and to enhance collection" or something very close.
While still packing more power than a handgun, and also making the gun more maneuverable indoors. I'll take the tradeoff.
While still packing more power than a handgun, and also making the gun more maneuverable indoors. I'll take the tradeoff.
LS240
Member
I wonder how long it took the ATF to figure out zombies don't really exist?
Prince Yamato
Member
"All Lawful Purposes" is probably the best response in case you ended up using your NFA item for self-defense. I personally like the funny reasons (Zombies, etc.), but if it ever went before a court on a serious matter, I might find my statement of purpose a little less funny.
Big44mag
Member
I just said that some people shy away from "investment", gave the reason and said it pertained to certain items. I don't think I really need to go into details but you need to be careful when it comes to selling arms to make sure you aren't in violation.
If someone lost their job and sold a couple of NFA or even non NFA items to cover their mortgage, technically they are supporting themselves by selling arms which according to ATF you cannot do without a license.
You can put whatever you want on the form as long as it doesn't blatantly violate the law. Whether it gets flagged or not will depend on the examiner and what kind of day they are having.
If someone lost their job and sold a couple of NFA or even non NFA items to cover their mortgage, technically they are supporting themselves by selling arms which according to ATF you cannot do without a license.
You can put whatever you want on the form as long as it doesn't blatantly violate the law. Whether it gets flagged or not will depend on the examiner and what kind of day they are having.
Aaron Baker
Member
I would like to see a ruling from the ATF or even a law that says you can't "invest" in firearms. I absolutely think you can make a long-term investment in firearms. People do it all the time when they buy a nice rifle and keep it in pristine condition. That's what collectors are doing. And even if they don't ever sell them, they expect to pass along these valuables to their children.
Investment is not the same as being in the business of selling firearms. If you buy a lot of firearms, keep them for short periods of time and make money selling them to other people, then you're in the business of dealing firearms.
But if you buy a high dollar firearm, keep it for a while (years, decades, whatever) and then sell it because someone offers you money you can't turn down, or you are forced to sell it to pay for medical bills or rent, then you're not suddenly a firearms dealer.
I would argue that it doesn't matter what your intent is when you sell the firearm. It matters what your intent is when you BUY the firearm. So if you buy a gun (or guns) because you intend to resell it (or them), then you're a firearms dealer and need a license. But if you buy a gun because you think it will appreciate in value down the road, then you're just a collector/investor and you don't need a license. And if you never intended to sell it, but are forced because you can't afford rent, then it doesn't matter why you're selling it. If I have to sell my car to pay rent, I'm not suddenly a car dealer, am I?
Obviously the ATF takes weird positions on things. I'd like to see some documentation from the ATF that selling firearms that were "investments" or because you need the rent money somehow makes you a firearms dealer.
There is a separate issue that you have to take into account when dealing with NFA items. And that's the trust route for approval. If you form a trust with beneficiaries, then any property in that trust is generally supposed to be held for the benefit of those beneficiaries. You've got to be careful when creating the trust to allow the trustees to use the item. Using a firearm usually reduces its value, so you'd be acting to the detriment of the beneficiaries by depreciating the value of the trust property. There's ways around that when forming a trust.
What is interesting is that a trust applying for a tax stamp IS investing in firearms. That's the purpose of a trust. So I would think if you go the trust route, that'd be the most honest, legally-true answer. But it's different than other firearms purchases, because it isn't an investment for the trustee, who keeps and uses the item, but for the beneficiary, who has to be a different person.
Aaron
Investment is not the same as being in the business of selling firearms. If you buy a lot of firearms, keep them for short periods of time and make money selling them to other people, then you're in the business of dealing firearms.
But if you buy a high dollar firearm, keep it for a while (years, decades, whatever) and then sell it because someone offers you money you can't turn down, or you are forced to sell it to pay for medical bills or rent, then you're not suddenly a firearms dealer.
I would argue that it doesn't matter what your intent is when you sell the firearm. It matters what your intent is when you BUY the firearm. So if you buy a gun (or guns) because you intend to resell it (or them), then you're a firearms dealer and need a license. But if you buy a gun because you think it will appreciate in value down the road, then you're just a collector/investor and you don't need a license. And if you never intended to sell it, but are forced because you can't afford rent, then it doesn't matter why you're selling it. If I have to sell my car to pay rent, I'm not suddenly a car dealer, am I?
Obviously the ATF takes weird positions on things. I'd like to see some documentation from the ATF that selling firearms that were "investments" or because you need the rent money somehow makes you a firearms dealer.
There is a separate issue that you have to take into account when dealing with NFA items. And that's the trust route for approval. If you form a trust with beneficiaries, then any property in that trust is generally supposed to be held for the benefit of those beneficiaries. You've got to be careful when creating the trust to allow the trustees to use the item. Using a firearm usually reduces its value, so you'd be acting to the detriment of the beneficiaries by depreciating the value of the trust property. There's ways around that when forming a trust.
What is interesting is that a trust applying for a tax stamp IS investing in firearms. That's the purpose of a trust. So I would think if you go the trust route, that'd be the most honest, legally-true answer. But it's different than other firearms purchases, because it isn't an investment for the trustee, who keeps and uses the item, but for the beneficiary, who has to be a different person.
Aaron
- Status
