Reason: Straight Shooting on Gun Control

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Harry Tuttle

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Straight Shooting on Gun Control

A Reason debate
http://www.reason.com/0505/fe.ak.straight.shtml
Abigail A. Kohn, Don B. Kates, Wendy Kaminer, and Michael I. Krauss

When it comes to rancorous debates in which the two sides routinely talk past each other, gun control ranks up there with abortion and the death penalty. Last year Abigail A. Kohn, an anthropologist trained at the University of California at San Francisco, bravely waded into this battle with Shooters: Myths and Realities of America’s Gun Cultures (Oxford University Press). A sympathetic portrait of gun enthusiasts in Northern California, the book ends with a plea for a calmer discussion of guns and crime. Reason asked Kohn to summarize her argument and invited responses from three people with an interest in this area: civil liberties lawyer Don B. Kates, journalist Wendy Kaminer, and law professor Michael I. Krauss.
 
Here’s what gun control supporters must do to have any hope of being heard on the national level again:


Stop trying to destroy the gun culture. There are more than 250 million guns in public circulation in the U.S. They cannot be wished away. Even if the U.S. government banned gun ownership and stopped all gun manufacturing and importation, it would still need to confiscate all those weapons. Doing so would require wholesale violations of Fourth Amendment rights. The probability of getting rid of guns in America, therefore, is practically zero.


Then there are the people who own all those guns. The gun culture is a multilayered, multifaceted phenomenon made up of diverse, complex subcultures. Contrary to popular stereotypes, members of the gun culture are not all potential terrorists, unemployed skinheads hanging out at gun shows, or menacing warrior wannabes in camouflage gear. Not every gun owner is a member of the National Rifle Association; in fact, some gun owners dislike the NRA. Gun owners come in all colors and stripes: They are police officers, soldiers, farmers and ranchers, doctors and lawyers, hunters, sport shooters, gun collectors, feminists, gay activists, black civil rights leaders. Most of the shooters I know are normal members of their local communities. They have regular jobs; they go to neighborhood picnics and PTA meetings; they have children and grandchildren. They interact with their co-workers, bosses, employees, neighbors, friends, and families in socially positive ways.


Despite their differences in background and lifestyle, all these individuals have thoroughly integrated guns into their lives. Gun control supporters need to recognize that America’s gun culture has deep roots in American history and that pro-gun ideology has deep roots in America’s political culture. Even if the NRA were to magically disappear tomorrow, the gun culture would remain. The people who compose it are simply not interested in giving up their arms.


Guns and the gun culture are so intertwined with American culture that many Americans perceive guns as utterly, unremarkably normal. Most gun owners have unexciting, if not entirely banal, experiences with guns all the time. Claiming that gun owners are mentally ill or that the gun culture is a “cult†(as the historian Garry Wills has) will not change the fact that most gun owners are ordinary people.


Speaking of which…


Stop demonizing gun owners. Insulting, ridiculing, or attempting to shame gun owners leaves them even more disgusted by the idea of gun control. Gun control advocates and social critics have rarely missed an opportunity to describe gun owners as “gun nuts,†“gun crazies,†or even “potential terrorists.†If gun control advocates are only trying to rouse the passions of people who already agree with them, they may be accomplishing their goal. But presumably there is an audience sitting on the fence, an audience that includes gun owners who are open to persuasion by a reasonable point of view. Gun control supporters underestimate the ways their rhetoric alienates this reachable group of people.


Discontinuing these tactics of public ridicule would go a long way toward establishing better faith with gun owners. What would happen if politicians who support gun control publicly acknowledged that most Americans who own guns do so legitimately, as part of a well-established tradition of American citizenship? What if they noted that gun owners share their desire to reduce violence and welcomed the opportunity to hear their suggestions for fighting illegal gun sales and making the legal gun market safer? What if they actually meant it? I realize how unlikely it is that liberal politicians would be willing to give up the rhetoric that appeals to the hard-core anti-gun constituency. But if catering to this constituency means consistently losing elections, alienating large groups of voters, or having proposed policies shot down by the courts, surely it makes sense to reach out to moderate gun owners. Toward that end…

http://www.reason.com/0505/fe.ak.straight.shtml
 
And there what is wrong here?

Saracasm does not translate well into email.

Mr. Tuttle posts:

"I realize how unlikely it is that liberal politicians would be willing to give up the rhetoric that appeals to the hard-core anti-gun constituency. But if catering to this constituency means consistently losing elections, alienating large groups of voters, or having proposed policies shot down by the courts, ...."

As a resident of a Red county in the middle of a very Blue state, how is this approach bad?
 
Here’s what gun control supporters must do to have any hope of being heard on the national level again:

I don't want to teach the gun grabbers how to have a rational debate on gun control.

I want them to scream and rant and rave and say stupid things and continue to alienate as many people as possible.

I want them to continue to loose elections.

I don't want them to be heard on the national level again.
 
Contrary to popular stereotypes, members of the gun culture are not all potential terrorists, unemployed skinheads hanging out at gun shows, or menacing warrior wannabes in camouflage gear. Not every gun owner is a member of the National Rifle Association

Is she implying that the NRA is composed of the aforementioned types of people? Sounds like it to me but maybe, being an NRA Benefactor member, I'm a bit sensitive to such nuances.

As long as gun grabbers (and I assume that Ms. Kohn fits in that category since she's attempting to empower those who are in favor of gun control) see the NRA this way, they will continue to alienate gun owners, even those who aren't NRA members.
 
Simply put, you cannot negotiate with people who lie about their motives and goals.

"Gun Control" has nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with control. The gun grabbers know that gun laws don't prevent crime or violence, that's just a smoke screen for their true goal: total civilian disarmament. The liberal/left has plans for America, that they know we're not going to like, and they need to disarm us before springing them on us.

And where is the room for negotiation here? Between the white of full RKBA and the black of confiscation, there is no grey. There is no room for comprimise.

The whole article is flawed in it's basic premise.
 
Humanizing Gun Nuts

http://www.reason.com/0502/cr.ed.humanizing.shtml

An anthropologist shoots down stereotypes about gun enthusiasts.
Eric Dzinski


Shooters: Myths and Realities of America’s Gun Cultures, by Abigail A. Kohn, New York: Oxford University Press, 224 pages, $29.95


If there’s a gun in a scene, an old writer’s adage says, it had better go off. As that bit of advice suggests, there are few symbols more powerful than guns. They can represent liberation from oppression or serve as a weighty physical reminder of a lurking existential threat. No matter the association, the powerful emotional responses that guns elicit are largely responsible for the stagnant and vitriolic nature of the current gun control debate.


In Shooters, anthropologist Abigail Kohn argues that both sides of the debate have become so alienated from one another that they effectively form subcultures, and she studies them accordingly. Kohn calls Shooters an ethnography, an anthropological study conducted from within a culture to gain the “natives’ point of view.†Rather than studying gun enthusiasts though literature and statistics, or from behind a duck blind to ensure “objectivity,†Kohn spent time with enthusiasts, interviewing them, taking classes with them, and shooting with them.


Her research methods appear to be scrupulous. She confined her survey to a particular area (the San Francisco Bay area) rather than glossing the gun culture as a whole. She published her standard questionnaire as an appendix to the book, and the citations she offers to support her claims seem to come from both sides of the gun control debate. The result is a fascinating look into the world(s) of gun enthusiasm that puts real, human faces on a gun debate dominated by antiseptic statistics and abstract principles. After reading Shooters, you’ll wonder why no one has done such a study before.


The omission may stem from the typical attitude toward guns among academics, which Kohn addresses in her preface. From “public health†articles proposing gun control as a cure for the “epidemic†of gun violence to highly regarded sociologists who argue that gun research should be informed by “moral principles†rather than hard facts, she confesses her surprise at the ill-informed and often tendentious research conducted by academics. Kohn’s own research for Shooters, some of which appeared in this magazine (“Their Aim Is True,†May 2001), elicited predictable responses. One colleague said she was performing a “social service by researching ‘such disgusting people.’†Another said that unless Kohn acknowledged the “inherent pathology†of gun enthusiasm, she was disrespecting victims of gun violence.


The characters that emerge from Kohn’s interviews and observations are far more complex and interesting than the “gun nut†stereotypes that such comments suggest. The shooters in Shooters are diverse, including doctors, lawyers, artists, and men and women of various ages and races. Even their political persuasions are not as predictable as you might expect. While most of the people in Kohn’s book describe themselves as conservative, a few are politically liberal and say they regularly vote Democrat.


Kohn focuses particular attention on the women shooters, trying to determine what makes them want to be a part of the “boys’ club†of gun enthusiasm. The women that Kohn takes shooting classes with (and from) say owning firearms makes them feel less vulnerable, less like potential victims, and more like people in control of their own destinies. While some feminist scholars argue that female gun enthusiasts just reinforce violent and aggressive patriarchal tendencies, these shooters argue that by being armed they discourage male violence without the need for aggression.


It is here that Kohn’s work takes its most interesting turn. The women and minorities in Kohn’s book are acutely aware of the link between gun ownership and citizenship in the United States. Several of her subjects point to historical periods when certain segments of the population—blacks in the post–Civil War South, for example—were disarmed and enjoyed fewer rights and liberties than whites who had guns. That guns can and have been used by the oppressed to ward off their oppressors suggests that they can be a tool
for equality as well as freedom.


Even today, gun control has a disproportionate impact on poor people and minorities. Laws that target inexpensive guns (supposedly used more often in crimes) unfairly disarm people without the means to afford more costly firearms. Poor people are also disproportionately the victims of gun violence, meaning they have a greater stake in the right to self-defense.


The alternative that some anti-gun activists have suggested is reliance on the police, rather than guns, for protection. Shooters and gun scholars alike note that this solution is promoted by white middle-class gun critics for whom violence is not a daily reality and for whom the police are polite and responsive rather than menacing. They also note that in times of crisis, the minutes a police officer may take to respond could mean the difference between life and death. Shooters prefer the independence and reliability of self-defense.


These doctrines of self-reliance, toughness, and independence underlie a subculture that Kohn investigates thoroughly in Shooters: cowboy action shooting. More than an antique gun club, cowboy action shooting is a sport devoted to preserving the styles and ideals as well as the weapons of the Old West. Participants dress up in boots and hats and run through elaborate courses using period weapons.


Some of the most colorful characters in Kohn’s book populate her chapter on cowboy action shooting. Shooters with names like “Wild Bill Hiccup†run through target courses with cigars clenched in their teeth, playing out Old West fantasies. Kohn’s analysis occasionally drifts toward questionable psychosocial generalizations, such as her claim that cowboy action shooting is an attempt to reclaim a “white, middle-class identity†through Wild West re-enactments, despite participation by minorities and people of various economic classes. But by and large her account of this sport is delightfully thorough, especially to readers who had no idea it existed.


The chief weakness in this otherwise excellent book is Kohn’s ambitious linking of ideas. Describing a shooter who thinks the world of gun enthusiasm is not demarcated by color, class, or gender, she writes, “This belief in the inherent diversity of gun enthusiasm as it’s practiced is interesting for several reasons.†Here and elsewhere, she uses the word inherent to link one belief held by a shooter to a wider, more abstract idea about shooting
in general. The problem is that in the world of ideas (and certainly in the world of anthropology) there is no such thing as inherent connections.


People in different cultures will form entirely different concepts around the same object. Even two people in the same culture will make different connections between sets of ideas. At least once in Shooters, one of Kohn’s subjects makes the point that while shooters all share at least aspects of the hobby, they come to it from different backgrounds and for different reasons. Kohn’s emphasis on “inherent†beliefs seems out of place in a book that tries to map the diversity of ideas within the gun culture.


Although Shooters is supposed to be an ethnographic study of a particular subculture, near the end Kohn leaps to conclusions about the broader gun control debate. She argues that both sides of the debate must be willing to give up some fundamental assumptions and tactics in order to make gun legislation work for everyone.


She emphasizes, for example, that guns have been an integral part of American culture at least since the nation’s founding and that no amount of gun control will ever bring about the fundamental change its proponents imagine. On the other side, she argues that gun enthusiasts must give up the belief that gun control has no effect on crime, citing laws that prohibit felons from owning firearms as an example of effective gun control. (She fails to mention that those same felons can still get guns illegally.)


Although Kohn’s conclusions are thought-provoking and display a wealth of research about the subject, they depart substantially from her avowed purpose. They frame a discussion more suited to a general debate about the merits of gun control than to a targeted study of gun enthusiasm.


Those weaknesses aside, Kohn paints a fascinating portrait of gun enthusiasts. Studying people who are often maligned as racist, jingoistic troglodytes, she portrays a lively and diverse group brought together by common interests in history, mechanics, and liberty. Her colleagues in academia should take her insights to heart, replacing their blind disgust with a more dispassionate understanding of citizens who see a gun as a tool, not a menace.




Eric Dzinski is a writer living in Denver.
 
Reason Magazine 0wns!

For those of you not familiar with Reason, it is a very scholarly source of Libertarian thought.

I've read the entire piece, as well as the May 2001 article, which essentially describes Abigail Kohn's conversion to a (apparently moderate) pro-gun mentality (Kohn is the primary author in question).

For those of you still uncertain, *all* 3 people who replied to Kohn's May 2005 article are fairly Libertarian sorts of one stripe or another, one of them is more open to gun control than the others (Wendy Kaminer), and seemed more so than the other people who replied to fully understand Kohn's aim.

The major point Kohn makes, that is most useful to those of us attempting to support gun rights is:
But equally important, shooters should openly applaud programs and policies that are genuinely capable of reducing violence. Imagine how empowering it would be for shooters to say to their critics: “Well, no, I don’t support a ban on handguns, primarily because it doesn’t work. However, I do support [Project X or Program Y] because it has demonstrably reduced gun-related violence in several crime-ridden cities across the U.S. I reserve my support for policies that actually reduce crime and violence.â€

This would be quite useful in darn near any debate imaginable.

Another point worth noting is the criticism Wendy Kaminer (closest thing to opposition in this Reason article) has of the NRA. She states basically that the NRA seems in many ways like a wing of the Republican party. This is a valid criticism. Why is the NRA spending membership dues supporting things that do not promote gun rights? While I believe Kaminer exaggerates the degree to which the NRA does so, the fact that the NRA *does* it at all is bad for gun owners, as it makes enemies of people who need not be our enemies.

I tend to agree with Krauss and Kates that Kohn exaggerates the strength of the gun rights movement at present. The RKBA is not nearly as well defended as it needs to be, but very few rights are today.

I can't say I support many of the ideas that Kohn has for reducing gun violence, since I tend to believe that convicted felons should recover their right to bear arms after having served their time, but I recognize that this is a minority view. Further, my solution to illegal arms purchases is to simply allow the market to sell all firearms to all people. As for the other solutions to violent urban crime involving firearms... I think ending the drug war would get rid of the vast bulk of that, but that isn't going to happen either. Perhaps her biggest flaw of all however, is the belief she has that all supporters of gun control are as rational as she is, and thus amenable to reasonable discussion. The obvious problem however, is that they are simply wrong. Kaminer is accurate in identifying Kohn as not being balanced, and overly favoring gun owners, but that's the only reasonable position.

-Morgan
 
The writer lost me here on how the gun crowd can beat the gun grabbers at their own game. By supporting such anti-gun reasoning as the so called gun show "loophole".

A good example is private gun sales, which are largely unregulated. This creates a serious problem, since there is strong evidence that guns used in crime are purchased through informal, third-party channels.
 
But equally important, shooters should openly applaud programs and policies that are genuinely capable of reducing violence. Imagine how empowering it would be for shooters to say to their critics: “Well, no, I don’t support a ban on handguns, primarily because it doesn’t work. However, I do support [Project X or Program Y] because it has demonstrably reduced gun-related violence in several crime-ridden cities across the U.S. I reserve my support for policies that actually reduce crime and violence.â€

That statement underlines the flaw in the thinking in that article.


There is this goofy assumption that in every issue there is a "middle ground" ... a place for compromise ... a diplomatic solution.

In the gun control debate there is no "middle ground". Every time I hear about the RKBA movement making a "compromise" with the antis its always us moving toward them never the other way around.

The only thing that either side can do to placate the other is 1) give up and change sides or 2) die.

Thats it.


EDIT
Maybe I need to clarify my problem with the statement quoted above.

this is the problem
I reserve my support for policies that actually reduce crime and violence.

This is a fallacy of logic called "begging the question". The entire statement assumes that crime CAN be reduced by some sort of law or public policy regarding the ownership of firearms. Thats the crux of my disagreement with gun control supporters in the first place so how can I "compromise" with them and meet them in "the middle ground" when the middle ground stated is THEIR position in the first place?
 
Now let's not put words into her mouth

The entire statement assumes that crime CAN be reduced by some sort of law or public policy regarding the ownership of firearms.

I don't think so. Read her description of the case she considers a positive one, that of Boston's Gun Project. The only thing it had to do with guns at all (from her description) was with regards dealers who were constantly selling to straw purchasers. The rest of the project never touched guns, or gun laws, and furthermore at no point ever introduced a new gun law.

If one disapproves of prosecuting/arresting/taling to dealers found to sell a lot to straw purchasers, then one can still, using the same language she provides, support a program that is found to deter crime which has no involvement with firearms regulation at all. For example, I might say that I support the legalization/decriminalization of drug crimes as a means of reducing other violent crime in urban areas, and offer that as a counter-argument to someone's belief that the only means of reducing crime is to regulate firearms.

Rhetorically it is very powerful to offer an alternative that achieves the same (stated) goals, since it puts them on the defensive. E.G.:

Anti: "How can you not support regulating private sales of firearms, when X Thousand people are killed by them annually?"
Me: "I don't support regulating firerams because no study ever conducted has ever demonstrated that regulating firerams has any effect whatever on crime, I do however, support legalizing drug use as it can dramatically reduce violent and non-violent crime. Why don't you support legalizing drug use when there is much more evidence it would have a positive effect on the crime rate, don't you care about saving lives?"

Now who's on the defensive?

Anyway, give her a bit of credit she *has* to come across as even-handed if she's going to get any credit from the other side.

-Morgan
 
Another point worth noting is the criticism Wendy Kaminer (closest thing to opposition in this Reason article) has of the NRA. She states basically that the NRA seems in many ways like a wing of the Republican party. This is a valid criticism.

I don't see it that way. Does the NRA "normally" support GOP candidates because of their gun positions or because of their party? For instance, my _Democratic_ Representative was Brad Carson. When he ran for his second term, the NRA gave him an A rating. The Republican who was running against him also got an A. So the NRA didn't suggest one or the other. They base their voting recommendations on the candidates' "gun scores." I have no doubt that the NRA would support a Democratic candidate in an election if their "gun record" was better than the Republican challenger. It just doesn't happen that way very often!

Gregg
 
Are we that jaded and paranoid that when someone writes something positive we still look for the catch, 'cause there has to be one? :confused:
 
here's statement number one:

As it is applied to the Social Sciences in Public Health, an epidemiological model from medical science serves only as a metaphorical model of behavior. As such, the a priori assumptions of the Public Health model is not only invalid science, but little more than a political statement for use by a special interest group.

(You can rephrase it yourself as a question.)

In light of it being 'only politics,' what commends it over a model from other perspectives--criminal justice, mental health, or safety?

my comment: easy answers are not allowed--but should the question be made more complex?

just got this from his book Private Guns Public Health:--p. 9: "Preventing gun violence requires not only individual (e.g., parental) accountability but also collective responsibility. Generating support for collective efforts to reduce gun violence is a current challenge for public health."
 
Are we that jaded and paranoid that when someone writes something positive we still look for the catch, 'cause there has to be one?

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me.
 
As long as gun grabbers (and I assume that Ms. Kohn fits in that category since she's attempting to empower those who are in favor of gun control) see the NRA this way, they will continue to alienate gun owners, even those who aren't NRA members.

This might be the most asinine statement I have seen yet on THR.

In the gun control debate there is no "middle ground". Every time I hear about the RKBA movement making a "compromise" with the antis its always us moving toward them never the other way around.
So, Zundfolge, you mean to say that you would not support policies that have demonstrably reduced gun related crimes? :confused:
AFAIK, the only policies that have done so are shall-issue laws. I guess you are against those. Maybe you are really one of the gun-grabbers....
 
"Shall-issue" laws?

The antis don't consider them to be "gun control" laws. They are against them almost to a man (or woman).

I'm not in favor of licensing something I consider a right. Vermont carry is my goal, nation wide.
Are we that jaded and paranoid that when someone writes something positive we still look for the catch, 'cause there has to be one?
She calls on us to consider what researchers such as James Wright & Peter Rossi, Gary Kleck, John Lott, Cook & Ludwig, and Jacobs & Potter have already shown don't work.

She's trying to "show" that both sides have something to bring to the table if only they abandon their must extreme positions. Problem is, the antis lose on all facets of the debate due to research over the last 20 years.

As JFH has begun to point out, the "public health" model is used because it is "prevention-based" which means two things: one, an army of "preventers" which in this case will either be, or be backed up by armed LEOs. The other thing I know about public health (since I work in it), the planning groups, the "interventions" et al are not data-driven... we have a phrase that describes it, "Emotional Epi" (epidemiology). That is, "screw the data, *I* know damnn well that guns are evil since I see it every day in my neighborhood (or on TV).

Bad stuff.

Rick
 
I'm not in favor of licensing something I consider a right. Vermont carry is my goal, nation wide.

My observation is that people who want "all or nothing" tend to end up with the latter.
 
A pretty good and fair article. But none of them even touch this issue: Even if the 'Assault Weapons Ban' was definitely proven to cut violent crime, should it still be on the books?

I, and I think most on this board, would say, absolutely not. Now that position would surely be regarded by anti-gun people as absolutely insane, and from their perspective I can see why they would think so. But to those of us who believe in being truly free as God meant it to be, our selection of firearms should not be limited because of what guns are used in crime, or what guns look the blackest and most 'evil' to a vote-grubbing politician who would give his left testicle to get re-elected next year.

I would be willing to bet that there is not much room for middle ground on this issue. You either believe that the choices of law-abiding people should be limited because of the acts of savages, or you don't.
 
Harry Tuttle:

You and I appear to have started similar threads, with respect to our both having posted links to the Reason magazine discussion around Ms. Kohn's book.

Some of the posts might be repitious, however I believe that the additional airing of thoughts is benifical over all, as I might get more people thinking.
 
My observation is that people who want "all or nothing" tend to end up with the latter.
Like Vermont and now Alaska?

Show me where I am currently "end[ing] up with the latter?" In fact, show me all your examples where, in modern, mainstream American politics, those who go for the whole enchilada end up with nothing?

I have no problem with states going for CCW permits, but there is no way in H-E-L-L that I am going to consider that to be the end-point of this issue.

Rick
 
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We just got a taste of so called "Compromise" here in Illinois

Blagoiavich was sent a bill that would close the so called "gun show loophole" but would require the destruction of all gun records in Illinois within 90 days. Blago states he will use his amendatory powers to veto the destruction of records part and keep the gun show loophole closure. It's dead when it gets back to the senate. However the leftists had a shell bill out there (SB1333) that they ammended to close the gun show loophole and passed it through both houses and you can bet Blagobitch is going to sign it. So much for Compromise. The Leftists are only out for one thing and they will not compromise. We should stop trying to compromise and come out in full battle gear.
 
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