Recent Airport Experience...

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A recent WSJ article suggested that ALL the major carriers are headed towards bankruptcy. I can't say that this is entirely their fault, but will anyone in Washington admit that all the petty harrassment of travellers might have any part in this trend?? Not likely.
 
I've cut my flying down to a minimum "only when I absolutely have to" kind of situation.

It's just plain -stupid- to have to spend 2-3 hours at the airport to make a 2 hour flight.

The added hassle, I mean, security has built up a lot of spite towards the airlines in me and a large part of wouldn't mind seeing them go out of business.

I'm also tired of seeing the airlines have the FAA -FORCE- them via regulation to do things that are in their petty interests anyway like reducing the carry-on luggage amounts, etc.

They're forgetting that I really -don't- have to fly everywhere.
 
Memorex-

If it's any consolation, I also think this extra security is Bull:cuss: as well, and I work for the airlines. Most of us in the business saw what what happening with the new Federal regs and shook our heads. It's all show to make the government look like it's doing something. And yes, it was fedgov who made the regs about carryon limits. We'd just as soon you carried whatever you wanted onto the airplane, or gate-checked it. But no, we get the brunt of both ends of it.
 
I fly so much that the counter personel pull out the orange tag when they see me approaching the ticket counter to check in in AUS and OKC. They don't even ask me to use the self-check-in kiosk anymore. It is much less a hassle at the airports with the cat scan machines in front of the ticket counters. The hand swabbing and poking, as done at MSY, is a pain, but at least I am there to supervise. When the bags disappear into the bowels of the airport for the check is where I get concerned.

It is okay to surrender the keys to the case PROVIDED that you are present while they are being used. If you can see what is going on then you are still in control of what is happening to the firearms that you are responsible for.

I usually only travel with one suitcase. Fortunately the one time that I ran into an idiot TSA screener, Evansville, In (EVV), was when I had two and he had me transfer the ammo to the second suitcase. It is not a federal requirement, nor is it on the airlines that I fly. I have not been on a Delta plane in over 20 years.
 
I refuse to fly. i have many reasons.

1. a car crash at 70 mph can be survived a plane crash at 500 cannot
2. I'm driving the car and am sober, is the pilot up front a lush?
3. cockpits are computerized and i have seen how well skilled pilots are with computers
4. when i blow a tire on my van (and i have) i can pull off the road, what do i do when the rudder flys off the plane?
5. i can drive around with any gun i want but i can't even get onto a plane with nail clippers
6. i can drive alone or with a freind, on a plane If i'm luckey i'll get to sit next to someone quiet at worst i'm jonny taliban's 1st hostage
7. i get into my van and go, at the airport i have some idiot with 50 iq points less than me waving wand around who do think has better security?
 
"A recent WSJ article suggested that ALL the major carriers are headed towards bankruptcy."

After 100 years of flight the US airlines can't design a uniform, workable procedure for dealing with firearms in checked baggage. TSA, one unified government agency, can't design a uniform, workable procedure either. No wonder the private companies are headed for bankruptcy and the government agency can't provide any real security.
 
I think that people here don't show enough grattitude for the services kindly rendered to them by the Department of Love:fire:
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Quote from Spacemanspiff," thought i read (on the errornet) that TSA regulations state the person who declares a firearm is NOT to allow ANYONE to have the keys that unlock, or the combinations to unlock the case the firearm is stored in.

wouldnt that include tsa employees?"



This is wrong I worked for the TSA for almost two years as a supervisor and I can verify that in our procedures that we take the keys to unlock the case. The reason for this is because once you checked you bag and declared your weapon and released control to the airline it is the airline/TSA bag from there. You are not allowed to touch your bag whatsoever even if it means to unlock your bag or gun case inside. If you decide that you do not want to give up the keys then we have a simple solution, break the locks off. Now don't get me wrong and think that I am taking sides I am just telling the rules. I got out of that crazy mans army full of a$$holes and people full of themselves.
 
By now I hear the words... "That man has a gun" or "He's got a gun." from all over behind me.

Off topic, but how is it that in a society where we see firearms constantly portrayed in movies and TV can the fact that there might be guns in real life set off a minor panic?:banghead:

I see it again and again. Personally, I think media hyping of crime has a lot to do with it, but Jeebus you would hope people would be more rational.

I wonder if Joe Average actually knows how fast CCW laws are sweeping the nation?
 
I've had various types of experiences when flying with my firearms in checked baggage. They're run the spectrum from the mundane to mass-panic ("Call airport security! He's got a GUN!!")

Anytime the "rules of the road" are being circumvented by an ignorant/lazy/uninformed/confused ticket agent, I suggest you politely but firmly say the following:

"Sir/Ma'am, please call your supervisor and a TSA representative immediately."

Let those in the know solve the problem for you. Arguing with the ignorant/lazy/uninformed/confused ticket agent is a waste of your time, of which you've already given up a substantial amount in order to comply with the various security regulations now in place (even if you were not checking a firearm!)

At a minimum, your situation will be dealt with in a swift and usually professional manner.

At best, the ignorant/lazy/uninformed/confused ticket agent will get a lesson in how to PROPERLY handle passengers checking firearms.

I know of at least 2 ticket agents who have been removed from their post and placed in "remedial training" as a direct result of how they handled my situation.

Before anyone jumps on me about being a bit over the top, I think being detained for 1.5 hours and missing my flight (remember my "mass-panic" spectrum description?) for attempting to LEGALLY check a firearm in baggage was a bit over the top as well....
 
Anytime the "rules of the road" are being circumvented by an ignorant/lazy/uninformed/confused ticket agent, I suggest you politely but firmly say the following:
"Sir/Ma'am, please call your supervisor and a TSA representative immediately."
I am usually a "nice guy" and try to be pretty easygoing but I think your advice (45 ACP) is right on target. The NEXT time I have any kind of problem checking my firearm I am not waiting. I am getting a supervisor (and probably TSA as well) immediately.
 
Don't count on TSA dealing with airlines. They have no control over what airlines allow/don't. In my case they were fine with me having 300rds of 9mm in checked bags. Actually he slipped in 50 more rds then Sun Country allowed. The guy who ran scanner looked at it and let it pass as well. (they knew the problem I was having) So half my ammo made it.
Most important thing is to NOT loose your cool.
 
larry_minn

Sun Country's demeaning treatment of gun owners (coupled with the most ignorant counter personnel in town) keeps me flying Northworst. At least the NWA supervisors do know the rules and procedures (including NWA's most recent "top secret" additions/modifications/exceptions).
:rolleyes:
 
Under 49CFR 1544.203 Part (f)(2)(iii)
The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination.

The key may be surrendered to a TSA person IF the baggage is opened in the presence of the responsible party, the traveller. I have been through this with TSA many times, especially in Indianapolis, and the luggage is brought out of the secured area so that the bag may be opened under my direction. The combination will not be surrendered. To break the locks on a hardsided case would cause the firearm to be transported illegally and would subject the TSA personel to a federal violation. TSA is NOT permitted to violate any federal regs while in the performance of their duties any more than they are allowed to violate any other federal law, NOR are they authorized to approve you to violate any federal law. Is a TSA agent permitted to rob a bank? Are they authorized to allow you to rob a bank?
 
I had an experience recently where I got into a "disagreement " with the TSA and airline personnel in Phoenix while travelling with a firearm.

I arrived at the United terminal in plenty of time, and stated to the Ticket Agent that I had a firearm I wished to declare as part of my checked baggage. The agent then asked to see said firearm.

This immediately had me worried. I explained to here that the arm (a Makarov) was (1) diassembled (field stripped), (2) packed in it's own soft-sided case inside my hard sided lockable luggage, and (3) contained no ammunition. I also told her that, in the interest of avoiding a spectacle, I would show the arm to those interested in a location OTHER than the front desk at the airport terminal.

The agent dropped her first request, and then threw a curve ball, and said "it has to be in it's own hard sided lockable case". Fortunately, I was prepared, and I then pulled out a copy of United's "information for travellers with firearms", taken from their website.

United's policy explains that the firearm must be in a hard-sided lockable case, but that case need not be solely for the purposes of transporting the firearm. Thus, my hard sided luggage met United's (and the FAA's) requirements for transporting a firearm via commercial aviation.

Then the supervisor arrived, and explained to her that my method was, in fact, acceptable under United's rules. The supervisor now added a NEW twist, and stated that I MUST leave the suitcase unlocked so the TSA can "examine" it.

Now encountering this hurdle, I then pulled out 49CFR 1544.203 Part (f)(2)(iii), and told him that there was NO WAY I was letting that bag leave my sight unlocked, as that would put in the category of "criminal" to do so.

After several minutes of discussion, the supervising agent told me to complete my formal declaration and signing of the requisite "firearms declared" orange card, and he then let the bag go through locked. He DID however, instruct me to stay near the ticket counter until the TSA had "reviewed" the situation.

About 10 minutes later, I was paged to the United ticket counter. There I was confronted by a man in an Eisenhower jacket, but with no real signs of being part of the TSA (no badges, uniform, etc.). He acted like he had authority though--he was about as polite as a rattlesnake. He proceeded to demand my keys so that he could unlock and inspect my bag. I told him that the bag contained a declared firearm, and that it was locked in accordance with FAA regulations. I also told him, that while I would not give him the keys, I would be happy to accompany him to whereever he wanted to perform the inspection of my bag.

At this point, Mr. Personality told me that I had 4 choices:
1. give him the keys so he could unlock and inspect my bag
2. allow him to break into the bag (thereby creating a vioation of FAA regs.)
3. fly without my luggage
4. not fly, and have my bag returned.

Given all the wonderful options, and given that I needed to be on the flight due to a family emergency, I had no choice but to give him the keys.

When he returned about 10 minutes later, I asked him why a place was not set up to allow travellers such as myself to have such bags inspected in the owners presence, and thereby not violate FAA regs. His response: we don't have any room for such a location, and thus the FAA is allowing us to do it this way.

What a great consolation: one Fed. Gov't. agency is allowing another to break written rules/laws, and the poor citizen is stuck in the middle.

I sure feel safer now that the TSA is watching over us...........NOT!!!
:fire:
 
AZ Jeff (and others)

I recently talked to a coworker of mine who is having the "David Nelson" problem with the TSA No Fly List -- his name isn't David Nelson, but same deal. (If you haven't heard about this, its a really big deal/hassle; read here for instance) He's not even traveling with firearms (recently, anyway) and is still getting major TSA hassle.

He has been advised (I shan't say by who but there is a class action lawsuit pending vs. TSA from what I gather :)) to do the following:

1. Always be nice and cooperate
2. Have printed copies of appropriate laws including the enforcing agency's logo (e.g. TSA rules on a document with TSA logo, FAA rules on a document with FAA logo, etc.) - -for example, printed websites ought to look official enough
3. Get everyone's name and title you talk to
4. If asked to do anything unreasonable (in our cases, illegal, if asked to turn over keys) get them to write down their request or sign a note saying they acknowledge that they are asking you to do whatever it is.

That is to say, you would have told "Mr. Personality" that you're OK giving him the keys as long as he puts in writing that he is requiring you to do it, and if you could have slipped in the fact that you showed him the regulation that indicates that's a violation of Federal law, before he signed or whatever, even better.

When you're back home or otherwise able, start contacting the appropriate agency from as close to the top as you can, informing everyone that you believe you were given an illegal order by one of their "agents."

If we all do this, we might actually stand a chance of getting things fixed a little.
 
What's the cite on the law/regulation on the airline allowing transport of a firearm, but that the tag must be IN the locked container?
 
It's in the section near the cite I listed

49CFR 1544.203 Part (f)(2)(iii),

I would look in 49CFR 1544.203 somewhere.
 
Found it.

Title 18, Part I,Chapter 44, Sec. 922(e)

(e)
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm. (emphasis added)
 
Off topic, but how is it that in a society where we see firearms constantly portrayed in movies and TV can the fact that there might be guns in real life set off a minor panic?
Why do you assume the crowd panicked? If I am at an airport check-in station and I hear somone yell "He's got a gun!", I am going into condition orange. At that point, I don't know if the "he" is a gun person declaring a firearm or a nut about to start random target practice. Seeing as how I will be completely disarmed at the time, my response is going to be even more cautious than normal. Also, folks in the back may have heard the ruckus but don't know what is going on and simply asked their neighbor in line out of curiousity.
 
OK, being a TSA screener at the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport, I feel I need to say the following:
We are required to screen firearms and cases through physical inspection. The regs state that we are not to touch the firearms, but we may "nudge" the firearms to the side to get a look underneath it. The regs further state that NO ONE should handle a firearm except for a Law Enforcement Officer. The reason we "rip" the padding out is so that we can do a thorough search. We could avoid having to remove the padding by using our fancy Explosives Trace Detection equipment, but gunpowder alarms said machine. Getting an alarm lengthens the screening process, so physical searches are used instead. Also, remember that the national TSA screening workforce has a highly diverse background. A large portion of the workforce previously had such careers as computer analysis, customer service, small business, private security, etc. A lot of these people are not familiar with firearms...also, a lot of these people are conservative - saying they are not gun people because they are liberal is BS. Another thing, no screeners have had training in firearms familiarization. Training at the TSA is barely adequate. (That makes you feel safe, doesn't it?!) If anyone has any other questions, I'll be here! Thanks!
 
Hey Ozone!

Thanks for chiming in. I've got two questions off the top of my head...

(BTW, I'm not anti-TSA per se, I'm anti-stupid-government-policy ;) and it seems like some of the things the TSA do are kinda stupid -- I'm sure some are mandated, and others are just results of policies that weren't well thought out.)

1. Why would a screener ask for the keys to a locked piece of luggage containing a firearm when the owner could be asked to open it? Is that something you've seen happen, or do you usually see the passenger accompany the luggage for screening?

2. Is there a "no fly list" or not?

Thanks! :)
 
Hey Ozone77

Welcome to The High Road.

On a recent trip, the TSA screened my checked baggage and inspected my firearms. As one went through the bag, he called my name to the other who was manning the x-ray, who recorded my name in a notebook. What's up with that?
 
AZ Jeff, I ran into similar problems last year in Indinapolis. After quite a lengthy confrontation, over one hour, including 3 members of TSA (screener, supervisor, and manager), 2 Indy airport police, plus one US Air Marshall, my suitcase was brought out and opened in my presence and the policy at the Indy airport as been formally changed to bring them in compliance with federal statute. I will be flying to Phoenix a couple of times later this year for the Crossroads of the West Gun Shows. I guess I will allow myself a couple of extra hours to deal with Phoenix TSA.
 
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