Recoil Adverse Cartridges

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ExAgoradzo

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So, in a conversation with someone of unknown knowledge to me, he made the comment that there is little difference in the (standard) rounds between the .243 and the 7mm -08.

Now, I think I understand what he's saying. One is at the bottom rung and the other is the top rung of a ladder (my analogy) that is the smaller game rifles. His including the Rem seemed to me to be what made him wrong. I understand that it is more on the bottom rung of the ladder that goes up to the .30-06. (Full disclosure: I have never used a 7mm -08, but Jack said we could use his scout rifle in this caliber...so, not really a 'small game round'.)

The whole point came up when thinking about cartridges that are good for young kids and recoil adverse shooters. If you were going to buy such a rifle (a few years ago, I chose the 6.5x55...so this is all academic for me) just pick one up in a rifle you like and be done with it...

What do you all think about that LGS discussion?

Greg
 
The .243 is much less recoil with 85 to 100 grain bullets than a 7mm08 with 140 grain, in my experience with both. My .243 weighs seven pounds, ready to hunt; my 7mm08 weighs 6.5 pounds. Sako Forester 19" carbine vs. Rem 700 Ti.

Basically, the 7mm08 is a .308 with ten grains weight lighter bullet. About the same recoil, pretty much.
 
Basically, the 7mm08 is a .308 with ten grains weight lighter bullet. About the same recoil, pretty much.

Pretty much. I might have said 25grn less bullet (140 vs. 165), but really same-same. You take another 40+ off for the .243win.

.308win does have notably less recoil than .30-06, 7mm-08 perceptibly less than the .308 if you're shooting them side by side, and then we talk about a much more significant gap down to the .243win.

I'm not sure what the OP is really trying to prove over this acquaintance of unknown knowledge? Is the assertion the 7-08 is the maximum tolerable recoil for a scout weight rifle? That the 7-08 is too powerful for small game? That the .243win is too weak for large game? That the 7-08 is too powerful for a youth rifle? What exactly is the point?

In my experience with the two, the gap between the .243win and 7-08 is rarely relevant. For a small game hunter, or coyote hunter, the .243win is serviceable but overpowered if saving hides, as is the 7-08. For an elk or larger game, the 7-08 is on the lowest end of the spectrum, as is the .243 - where neither is a great choice, but can work with certain considerations given. In the middle ground, the most common American game species, whitetail deer, both are highly efficient and effective.

There are a great number of cartridges which serve well for youth rifles, and much depends upon the weight of the rifle used, and the weight (age and physical size) of the child. .243win, 6.5 Grendel, 300blk, 6.8spc, 25-06, 7-08, .260rem, 6.5 Creed, 6.5x55, .30-30.... It's not really so challenging - the larger the case, the lighter the bullet needs to be to prevent recoil from becoming excessive. Alternatively, smaller cases can use a bit heavier bullet without becoming excessive in recoil, but the smallest cases might not have enough punch for larger game with the lightest of bullets. Pick a round which runs an 80-140grn bullet somewhere between 3000 to 2600fps (counter flowing spectra) and you'll see recoil be very manageable.
 
in a conversation with someone of unknown knowledge to me, he made the comment that there is little difference in the (standard) rounds between the .243 and the 7mm -08.

Talking about performance on game?. I agree, in fact I'd go so far as to say that I'd hunt anything with a 243 that I'd hunt with anything short of 375 mag. Everything in between will take all the same game. The difference is in effective range. A good bullet from a 243 placed in the right spot will kill any animal in North America. But a 338 magnum will give you a little more room for error and do it at longer ranges. A 243 would be on the extreme light end of the spectrum with 338 WM on the extreme upper end of the spectrum. And I'd listen to arguments that a 338 is a little better on big stuff. But to argue the differences of any 2 rounds in between is splitting hairs. They all kill the same animals. Choosing the right bullet for the job is far more important than caliber, velocity or what name is stamped on the brass.

Each person has their recoil limits. It has long been said that a 30-06 was the most powerful cartridge that the majority of shooters could learn to tolerate. Overall I'd agree with that. Depending on the exact load and rifle weight 30-06 is coming back with 18-21 ft lbs of recoil. The 7 mags are about 1 ft lb more with 270 being about 1 ft lb less. Once you get to 300 magnums it is closer to 30 ft lbs.

Rounds like 308 and 7-08 have become very popular because in the real world they do anything most people would do with 270 and 30-06, but with recoil in the 15-18 ft lb range. A 243 is in the 10-11 ft lb range and most people will notice the difference, especially novice shooters. A 223 is in the 5 ft lb range. One of the big reasons the 6.5's are so popular right now is their recoil to performance ratio. Any of them, 6.5X55, 260, or 6.5 Creed will shoot 140 gr bullets that have the same performance on game as 140-165 gr bullets from 7-08 or 308, yet with recoil in the 11-12 ft lb range. Much closer to 243.
 
Felt recoil is subjective and has more to do with the rifle's stock(both material and shape) and the bullet weight than anything else. Including for young kids and recoil adverse shooters.
There's really no comparing a .243 and a 7mm-08 since they do not share bullet weights. However, a 100 grain .243 at 2960 fps out of a 7.5 pound rifle has 8.8 ft-lbs. of recoil energy. A 120 grain 7mm-08 at 3000 FPS out of a 7.5 pound rifle has 12.1 ft-lbs. That 3.3 ft-lbs. isn't a lot until you've hiked a bunch of distance carrying that 7.5 pound rifle(kind of light) and everything else you own to a deer blind.
Most LGS discussions are guys BSing each other. Or trying to out BS each other.
 
I'm not sure what the OP is really trying to prove
Not trying to 'prove' anything. Trying instead to ask the question about relative 'equality' of the rounds discussed. Not even that as much as continuing the conversation that I had. Not everything needs to be an argument...

As I ended the post, 'pick the rifle you like'.

But what I did want some perspective on was my point that the 7mm really is a step up from the class or cartridges that begins with the .243... Seems like most of you take his side. This is why I ask questions: I want to learn.

Greg
 
It would be hard for me to define what I would want to use one for that I would not want to use the other for but the 7mm-08 is definitely a few rungs up the ladder from a 243 in terms of power and recoil. I guess if I had both leaning against the door frame I would grab the 243 to go coyote hunting, and the 7mm-08 for deer and larger. The 140's out of a 7mm-08 is going to out penetrate anything you can shoot out of a 243.

I guess you can rationalize all day long that a 300 blackout is practically a 30-30, which is practically a 300 savage, which is practically a 308, which is practically a 30-06, which is practically a 300 win mag, which is practically a 300 weatherby, which is practically a 300 ultra mag. So does that mean a 300 blackout is almost the same thing as a 300 ultra mag?
 
I agree with everything posted so far.

I would like to add my own outlook, specifically addressing "new" hunters. Who are offten immediately considered when we talk about recoil sensitivity.

When stuff goes even mostly right there is, imho, very little difference between top loads for the .243 and the 7-08, or even the 06 class rounds.

But when stuff goes wrong, which is more likely to happen with a new hunter, I prefer they be shooting the largest cartridge they are 100% comfortable with. If thats the .243 great, it it happens to be a 7-08 or even larger thats greaterer..... but they have to be completely comfortable with it.

A .243 round thru the guts is no less (or not much anyway) lethal than a 7mm, but when it comes down to tracking a badly hit animal especially one thats leaking mostly bile and bits of food, i want as large an exit as possible. I also want as much chance for a shot taken at a bad angle to get something important, which means expansion and penetration. Bigger cal/cartridges can generally use heavier bullets at similar velocity, and while sd has to be taken into consideration, if its similar the larger heavier bullet has more mass to waste on expansion.

Again this is all theory from my own experience, which is limited in terms of larger game.
 
I think a bigger issue is how the round is loaded. If the rifles weigh close to the same, it boils down to bullet weight and powder charge. Someguy2008 mentioned bullet weight and I think he is on track. It also depends on what you are hunting. If you are shooting white tailed deer, the .243 with soft points is all you probably need. Something bigger; like elk, and you might want that hot 140 grain buzz bomber. You know that sucker is going to recoil. Practice, practice, practice.
kwg
 
Sorry, I couldn't help myself...
Adverse: preventing success or development; harmful; unfavorable.
Averse: having a strong dislike of or opposition to something.

FWIW, I didn't even know "adverse" was a word. I thought I was going to correct the OP's usage, but I learned something new instead. Both words are applicable in this context.
 
the 7mm really is a step up from the class or cartridges that begins with the .243...

If you look at the spectrum of .308win cartridges as a whole, it's not as clear cut as "a step up" in increasing recoil and increasing game weight potential, but most people don't consider the entire spectrum, and only consider the front runners - .243win, 7-08rem, and 308win - in that consideration, there's a baby brother who must have been a "whoops" with two older brothers closer in age.

But if a guy looks at the entirety of the spectrum, you don't see quite as much of a stair step between the players.

It's not surprising, bullets will follow a similar profile, so you'll see a fixed spectrum of bullet weights for a respective caliber, and when you put the same case behind them, comparison is straight forward. But the .308win case is really capable of any game in North America, and managing bullets from 35grn up to 250grn...

But if you pick any two neighbors on this list, not skipping a few calibers, you won't find a significant gap. Pick cartridges spread by a few calibers below and you'll see a bigger gap. Such is the nature of these things.

22 CHeetah and 22-243 are really meant for the lighter bullets, typically loaded with 60 and lighter, but it could be loaded 35-90grns if an appropriate barrel were selected. As to be expected, these aren't elk rifles, and strain for whitetail sized game, but really shine with small game up to coyotes. Of course, these are both wildcats, but the 22-243 does have a strong following.

The 243win as the 6mm entry manages 55's up to 115's, given appropriate twist. These can be a bit much for small game, can be kinda nasty on coyotes for a hide hunter, and are much more efficient and effective on whitetails.

I'm not sure many folks will have ever heard of the .25 Souper, and likely for good reason - it runs 75-115, 120grn bullets, and largely doesn't do anything the .243win can't. A wildcat proposition here too. Effective, but less readily sourced and not really worth the hassle over .243win, although I think it would make a fine midrange speedgoat cartridge, very capable on whitetails as well.

The 260rem slides up to the 100-140grn ballpark, closing the door on ANY question of lacking power anyone might have had with the .243win. Until recent years, a guy didn't hear much about the .260, but it has enjoyed a resurgence (probably a bad choice of words, as it's more popular now than it ever was), as the x47 and Creedmoor have bolstered a precision long range light cartridge market. Nobody is recommending it for Elk, but it's a hammer on deer, and certainly effective for elk when deployed.

Ackley lists a 270-08 in his manual, but if memory serves it was meant for the 120's and 130's, and it's about as obscure as a cartridge can get, considering the common nature of its brass and caliber. This one COULD likely bridge up to 150's, but I've not heard of anyone doing it.

Stepping up to the 7-08 offers access to long 160's, but seldom do folks actually shoot anything so heavy in it. Typically hanging out in the 120-147grn ballpark, but could be loaded up to 160's. Still not highly recommended for elk, there's never any argument it is not so capable, and I have occasionally heard mention of its use for moose. This tends to be about the line where people cut off their recommendation for youth rifles. In a light rifle, a proper youth model which could be carried by a 12yr old, the recoil could be too stiff for a child of such size. As it could also be for a 140-147grn, or 160grn 260rem. On the extreme side for coyotes, it's typically only used at extreme ranges or by guys not collecting fur.

The venerable 308win, of course, is best fed with 150-180grn bullets, and the recoil crosses over the line for many youth shooters in light, short rifles. It also crosses firmly into the "too much" realm for coyotes and small game, often even touted as such for pronghorn.

338 Federal is a little power hammer of a cartridge. It runs out of juice for the 250+ pills, so it doesn't garner as much favor as larger case cousins for moose and bear, but it's still quite capable for anything in North America. Recoil is commensurate with the 180-225 pills it's running. Nobody is handing a 338fed to their 12yr old daughter, and rightfully so. It's one of the better behaved 33's, but it's still running a 200grn pill.

The .358 Remington is one of those grand old cartridges which earned the right to ride the "positive side of obsolecence." The .338 federal likely wouldn't have garnered the favor it has if there weren't such a sparse market for 35cal bullets, and such a good supply of 338's. It dutifully manages the 250's, but like many of the .308 family, it runs out of mag length to load the super heavies, and runs out of horsepower for anything but short range work. A guy can be sure plenty of eastern bruins have fallen to .358win's, but I can also be sure you won't catch a millennial carrying one.

Pick your target game and you'll likely find 3 from the list which are well suited - the smaller caliber of the 3 will run lower recoil, giving you a few options to fit your preference.
 
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The 7mm-08 is loaded pretty mildly with 120gr bullets oriented for white tail and pigs and w/o being advertised as the reduced loads that
you also have them.
There are many rifles sold and marketed with the understanding that these loads are easy on the recoil, flat shooting and do very well in that
weight department. It can be a great youth / wife rifle and that is one aspect of it.
This compared to a 100 gr 243 is not a huge difference in perceived recoil.
The 7mm-08 can also be loaded with 100 and 110gr varmint bullets so in many ways it can take the role of the 243 and 260 for this.
But in reality it can do a lot more with high performance loads in the 150gr to 175gr and depending on twist.
In fact, it can be loaded for long range too and ballistically superior to all of the others including the 243, 260/6.5 and 308.
But obviously as you pump the rounds and increase grain the recoil increases. The laws of physics are always there.
The 308 can be loaded to shoot practically like a 243 too using 110gr -125gr varmint and hunting bullets.
There is a great difference in recoil between a 110gr bullet and a 180gr bullet to harvest the largest game.
 
JMHO. One of the biggest things that make guns KICK is the concussion that is heard/felt with poor hearing protection. I've seen it with friends, relatives and my own kids. Certainly pick a standard round over a magnum with a lighter bullet. But I've seen shooters with poor hearing protection that flinch with a loud 80 grn .243, shoot a 150grn 30-06 with earplugs under muffs with no problem.
 
Where I am from the 243 is the defacto whitetail rifle for kids and women. Of course some men shoot them as well but most graduate up to 270's and 06's. I remember as a teenager in school that a 243 had a stigma attached to it as being a girls cartridge. The 243, 270, and 30-06 make up a large majority of the guns on the shelves here. I really don't see very many short action guns in stores here. 7mm-08 is certainly not a common chambering here.
 
I can take recoil, I just don't see a point in it if I don't need to. For white tail, my go-to's are 243 and 223. May try 300 B-O.
 
For me it is very simple. .243 is plenty for anything up to elk. 7mm-08 is fine for anything up to and including elk.

In the exact same rifle a .243 has considerably less felt recoil than a 7mm-08. That is based on my children shooting both in the Vanguard Youth/Compact, and then me shooting both to see what they were talking about. Because I didn't believe them.
 
For recoil comparison, add the weight of the bullet and powder charge and multiply by muzzle velocity, for each cartridge. Divide one into the other to see the percentage difference. If the rifles are notably different in weight, factor that in.
 
For recoil comparison, add the weight of the bullet and powder charge and multiply by muzzle velocity, for each cartridge. Divide one into the other to see the percentage difference. If the rifles are notably different in weight, factor that in.


Recoil momentum isn't the sum of the powder and bullet, as the powder is flying faster than the bullet. You'd get fairly close in THIS comparison, since most .308win family cartridges use relatively similar charge weights - but let's say for example, you want to compare a .308win to a .30-06 with the same bullet weight - the powder charge weight and velocity shows the truth for why the .30-06 recoils so much more.

For rifles:

(Bullet wt + powder wt*1.75) * MV = recoil momentum

Then to calc recoil velocity:
Momentum / rifle weight = recoil velocity

Free recoil energy:

1/2 * rifle weight * recoil velocity^2 = FRE

Of course, a guy has to correct his units to pounds, which I figure most guys can do.
 
The recoil can be a pretty arbitrary thing.
-We have the recoil calculated on paper.
-Then we have the actual recoil depending on the firearm type, weight of the firearm, etc..
-And then we have the perceived recoil after we factor the shooter, geometry of the rifle, ergonomics, proper posture, etc...
A softer recoiling caliber might appear more aggressive as a larger one because of considerations made in design of the system and also proper handling.

Things to consider. The 243 is an awesome cartridge, good for many things but it cannot do things the 7mm-08 can do. The 7mm-08 can cover all the roles of the
243 and much more, even with the limited selection in 100-110gr varmint bullets. A different story is if one wants a caliber that can grow or can simply set in a smaller one
because there is no need for such flexibility. 7mm barrels also last longer... (throat erosion and average accuracy life I mean)
 
As soon as the gas can escape around the back of the bullet as it exits the barrel, it is moving faster than the bullet.
 
How in the world can the powder's gas fly faster than the bullet? The primer launches both at the same time, and the bullet sure doesn't move over to the slow lane and let the gas go by. :)

Don't blame me - call SAAMI if you have complaints. It's common fact, they've proven it empirically.

SAAMI publication on recoil calculation, including propellant gas velocity factors

Outdoor Life article reflecting the same 1.75 given by SAAMI

Some formulas use a fixed 4,000fps for the gas velocity, instead of 1.75x bullet velocity, as noted in Major General Hatcher's notebook. But the empiricisms have shown the correlation more apt... however, there is consistent agreement the propellant gases are faster than the projectile.
 
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Two different things so "ahead" might not be the right word to describe this.
A gas ring expands several times faster than the bullet but moving to the sides.
This is only for a small fraction of a second and quickly dissipates vs the bullet that is a solid object.
Have you ever seen one of those cool slow-mo videos? Because of these amazing cameras one can appreciate very clearly
the physics at play here..

 
The "equality" of rounds? The 243 and 7mm-08 are certainly not "equal" in terms of recoil when all things are kept as close to apples/apples comparison.
 
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