highorder
Member
That's what turns this discussion into a snooze for me.
"What Ifs" and "buts" turn this into an "angels and pinheads" discussion.
I prefer the real world, where a faster bullet prints lower, really.
Recoil and point of aim
- Thread starter Red Cent
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That's what turns this discussion into a snooze for me.
"What Ifs" and "buts" turn this into an "angels and pinheads" discussion.
I prefer the real world, where a faster bullet prints lower, really.
As I posted early in the thread, it does in my world. No figuring or guessing, just results on target. I just so happen to shoot those 125s at both velocities listed in a .357 revolver, and I know where they hit in relation to each other. 
unspellable
Member
muzzle flip
If you don't think the muzzle on your revolver begins to rise before the bullet leaves the muzzle, lay a straight edge from the top of the front sight to the rear sight. If it's heavy caliber, it will be pretty obvious that the barrel center line is pointing below the line of sight at the time the sear breaks. The barrel must rise to the line of sight or slightly higher before the bullet exits the muzzle.
Keeping a consistent jump is one of the reasons why a consistent grip is so important to accuracy.
I believe the statement of the 357 shooter with two different 125 grain bullet loads above since it's very well known among double rifle shooters that barrel dwell time is the dominant factor in jump.
If you don't think the muzzle on your revolver begins to rise before the bullet leaves the muzzle, lay a straight edge from the top of the front sight to the rear sight. If it's heavy caliber, it will be pretty obvious that the barrel center line is pointing below the line of sight at the time the sear breaks. The barrel must rise to the line of sight or slightly higher before the bullet exits the muzzle.
Keeping a consistent jump is one of the reasons why a consistent grip is so important to accuracy.
I believe the statement of the 357 shooter with two different 125 grain bullet loads above since it's very well known among double rifle shooters that barrel dwell time is the dominant factor in jump.
Red Cent
Member
Tuner, the original shot was at thirty yards, handgun resting and unimpeded and sighted in for thirty yards.
The second shot request was for the same round to be fired with grip impeded and barrel subdued.
Where will the seond bullet hit?
The second shot request was for the same round to be fired with grip impeded and barrel subdued.
Where will the seond bullet hit?
NMGonzo
Member
Distance?The last few posters are right. Faster bullet exits the barrel at a lower point in the recoil arc, hitting lower.
Any old handgun silhouette shooter could have told you that.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Low.
The post was for illustrative purposes, and in line with the question that Red Cent asked.
As we all are. There was an implied comparison between two opposite ends of the spectrum. Completely locked down and impeded from movement as compared to free recoil.
highorder
Member
Tuner, I meant no disrespect to you, or theoretical discussion in general!
In my head I heard dad explaining it all to me with his Model 27 in hand... Back in those days it was 158gr lead vs. 110gr Remington JHP's. I remember asking almost exactly the same question about "free recoil" shooting. Dad was very pragmatic; he asked me when I would every have a chance to something like that.
Didn't mean to put anyone off.
In my head I heard dad explaining it all to me with his Model 27 in hand... Back in those days it was 158gr lead vs. 110gr Remington JHP's. I remember asking almost exactly the same question about "free recoil" shooting. Dad was very pragmatic; he asked me when I would every have a chance to something like that.
Didn't mean to put anyone off.
That would be up close, say 50 yards or less. At the 200m distance we shot rams at, bullet drop was a way larger factor.
Take a look at the height of the front sight on a Super Blackhawk, as compared to a Single Six or any 38 Special revolver. The magnum revolver will always have a much higher front sight, to compensate for the barrel flip.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Larry...For many who've never shot a hard-kicking single action at 200 meters, they can't really appreciate how important a consistent grip is in hitting a target at that distance with one. Just a little change in the grip can mean kickin' up dirt or slingin' one over the top. The grip shape tends to roll the gun skyward more readily than a DA revolver. It's just one of those little nuances that makes SA revolvers so interesting.
I used to live for those silhouette matches, by the way.
highorder...No offense taken. Just clarifying my statement.
I used to live for those silhouette matches, by the way.
highorder...No offense taken. Just clarifying my statement.
hank327
Member
I discovered the slower round hitting higher many years ago when I bought my first S&W Model 19. At first glance it didn't seem logical but it actual is. I ran into a somewhat similar recoil related problem when I got my S&W Model 29 .44 Mag. I sighted it in using a sandbagged rest and then couldn't hit diddly when shooting offhand. I had to ponder that one for a bit to figure that one out as the Model 29 was my first try into handgun hunting.
Red Cent
Member
Hank, a lot of people do not realize what free recoil is all about. As in indoor target archery, do the same thing every time and it will hit the same place. Tuner called it with the grip. Some companies are selling handgun rests that have the handgun grip on a platform and the barrel is resting in a V. Will not shoot the same free handed.
I did learn something from Tuner (imagine that!). I did not realize when and where the recoil begins and ends with the semi.
I did learn something from Tuner (imagine that!). I did not realize when and where the recoil begins and ends with the semi.
Red Cent
Member
Tuner, will the impeded rise of the semi cause a significant vertical impact? Have any idea at about thirty yards?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Very little. First, we have to understand the recoil dynamics in the autopistol.
Static, in battery...the spring is in a preloaded state, keeping the slide forward. With a 16 pound spring, that preload is about 8 pounds. Because the bullet exits at about 1/10th inch of slide travel, that doesn't add much to the spring's load.
Once the slide is in motion, the recoil/action spring becomes a vectored force in a separate action/reation event between the slide and frame. As the spring compresses, it starts to push backward on the frame. Again...an additional 1/10th inch doesn't add much to the whole...and because once the bullet is gone, the force that drives it is also gone...and any felt recoil is coming from the slide compressing the spring against the frame. By the time the frame starts to "feel" any signifigant acceleration...ballistic recoil is over. With a really solid grip on the gun, it won't move until the slide hits the impact abutment...and by then, the bullet is about 25 yards downrange.
There's another factor in play. The mainspring. As the slide moves rearward, it encounters the hammer, and cocks it. Whatever resistance the hammer and mainspring offer to the slide is transferred to the frame as well...just like the recoil spring does. So, you get a little torque effect from the mainspring, but again...a good, solid grip will negate all or nearly all of it.
Another thing to consider is that with any action/reaction event...force forward equals force backward. The heavier the recoil/action spring, the more sharply that force backward is transmitted. Take it to a hypoththetical extreme and increase the recoil spring's resistance until the slide won't move at all, and the gun then acts like a fixed-breech revolver or single-shot.
Another hypothetical extreme:
A pistol with 30-foot frame rails. The slide sits way out on the end, and the barrel links down at 1/10th inch as usual. There is no recoil spring in this strange gun. It's fired electronically, so neither is there a hammer to cock. To minimize friction, the slide rides on ball bearings. You could fire the gun and feel no recoil at all unless the slide reached the impact abutment.
Why is this so hard to understand:
This morning I loaded up some .357's and .38's to the OP's specs. Went out and set up a 30 yard target and shot two groups out of my 686. As predicted the .38's hit an inch and a half higher that the .357's. As I went to get my camera the rain hit so no pics. Pics probably wouldn't convince some anyway.
This morning I loaded up some .357's and .38's to the OP's specs. Went out and set up a 30 yard target and shot two groups out of my 686. As predicted the .38's hit an inch and a half higher that the .357's. As I went to get my camera the rain hit so no pics. Pics probably wouldn't convince some anyway.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
There are some conditions under which the slow/high and fast/low rule isn't chiseled in granite. It depends on how much recoil is generated. If the gun is large and heavy...say an old .38/44 Heavy Duty Smith & Wesson...and the ammunition is 600 fps target wadcutter...and the grip is firm...the gun may not rise at all in recoil. That would place the POI lower than a hotter, faster round that moves the gun.
I used to shoot with an old Winston-Salem Police sergeant...now retired...who could rapid-fire a Model 10 with the then issued 158 grain SWCHP +P ammo...and chew the X-ring out of a B-27...and you could watch hard and never see the gun move. Of course, Wes was 6/4 and 260 pounds, and he had hands the size of hamhocks. When he wrapped'em around that revolver, about all you could see was the front of the frame and the barrel.
I used to shoot with an old Winston-Salem Police sergeant...now retired...who could rapid-fire a Model 10 with the then issued 158 grain SWCHP +P ammo...and chew the X-ring out of a B-27...and you could watch hard and never see the gun move. Of course, Wes was 6/4 and 260 pounds, and he had hands the size of hamhocks. When he wrapped'em around that revolver, about all you could see was the front of the frame and the barrel.
Red Cent
Member
And that just backed me up on what I said on another post. Upper body strength.
There are a number of people who do not think recoil/movement of the revolver begins until the bullet leaves the bore.
There are a number of people who do not think recoil/movement of the revolver begins until the bullet leaves the bore.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, yeah. There have been a few fights started over that issue.
Among other things.
Recoil...the actual acceleration of the gun backward...is over so quickly that we can barely detect it, if we do at all. What we see and feel is actually momentum that was generated and conserved during the acceleration...while the bullet is still in the barrel and the force is driving both sides of the system.
Momentum will be conserved...in the absence of outside force. Your grip strength...your upper body strength...your body mass. All these things constitute outside force. If the outside force...the resistive force...overwhelms the compelling force...there will be no movement of the reaction side. Think of welding a rifle to a 2-ton steel block. There will be no movement of the rifle when it's fired.
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