recoil operated rifles... which and when?

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Kaylee

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I was reading lately in an old gunsmithing book that the competitor to the M1 once upon a time was a recoil operated thingamajig -- the whole barrel assembly moving in the stock. The guy who was describing it (in the late 30's I think) seemed impressed with it, though it seems like it ended up in history's dustbin, yes?

Have there been any successful recoil-operated rifle designs? If so... which and when? What are we gaining and losing using gas-operated systems?

-K
 
I think the rifle in question was the Johnson, which operated by short recoil, meaning that the gun remained locked for less than the length of the cartridge. There was a lot of argument in the mid and late 1930's and early 1940's over the adoption of a semi-auto rifle for the U.S. military.

The first competitor to the Garand rifle was the Pedersen, which used a toggle system that was not really a locked bolt at all, but which used mechanical disadvantage to keep the gun closed until pressure dropped.

The second major competitor was the Johnson. Even though the Garand had been adopted as the M1 rifle in 1936, Johnson believed his rifle was better, and it had some advantages. This led to a lot of bitterness between Johnson (a Marine reserve officer with no combat experience) and the Army Ordnance department, with charges of rigged tests, favoritism, etc. FWIW, I have both rifles and believe the M1 is clearly superior to the Johnson, though the superiority may not have been as evident in 1941.

Some Johnson rifles were used in combat in the Pacific by Marines and by soldiers of the Netherlands East Indies.

Other recoil operated rifles have been the Remington 8 and 81, which were long recoil operated. There have been others, but these are the best known. I think the best known long recoil operated guns are the Browning Auto 5 shotgun and its variations and copies.

Almost all high power semi-auto pistols operate by short recoil; at least two, the Frommer Stop and Frommer Baby, were long recoil operated.

Jim
 
Obligatory pic, for familiarization purposes...

1906-vintage Remington Model 8, long-recoil operation, with Kalashnikov-style safety. (Or did the Kalashnikov have a Remington-style safety?) ;)

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IIRC, the Johnson performed well, but was dinged because the mechanism didn't allow for mounting a proper bayonet. The extra weight of the bayonet mounted to the barrel resulted in inconsistent cycling of the action.

Today, they are highly sought after by collectors, and are great shooters from what I hear.
 
Gewehr, wouldn't it be more correct to say the AK has a Remington type safety, since the Remington (a JOHN M. BROWNING design!) predates the AK by almost 40 years?
 
Kalashnikov may have actually seen a Remington Model 8.

Some were used in the early stages of WW I by aviation observers. The French used some Winchester Model 1907s that way.

The question is whether or not the Russians had any, and that's something I don't think anyone can answer for certain.
 
Some examples of successful recoil rifle designs:

HK G3 and family
Sig 510
FAMAS
Barrett 82A1

The Benelli shotgun's recoil system can theoritically also be used for rifles. There are several ways of locking or delaying the bolt by recoil, so you can't lump them all together in a comparison with gas operated rifles. Generally speaking they should be more ammo sensitive, as they are designed to work with a particular load. More insights welcome.
 
I believe the 1919 and M2 .50 both work on recoil (but I'm not sure if its short or long).

Kharn
 
Some examples of successful recoil rifle designs:

HK G3 and family
Sig 510
FAMAS
Barrett 82A1
The G3 and FAMAS are both examples of delayed blowback actions. I believe the SIG is as well, but I have no idea about the Barrett.

I suppose we can argue semantics, but the commonly accepted definition of a recoil operated weapon requires the barrel to move rearward with the rest of the action.
 
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