Recommend a good steel 45 Colt sizing die

[Cheesemaker]

I have been having issues with split 45 Colt cases for a few years now. Search this forum for "45 split" titles only, and you will find my last thread on it. I can't believe I posted that 5 1/2 years ago
I have lived with some splits since then and I figured it was a loose chamber in my Rossi 92 lever gun. Since then I have acquired a new Ruger BH (new model).

A few weeks ago I went to the range with around 100 45 Colt rounds. Rossi 92 and Ruger BH, brass (Remington and Winchester) reloaded 3 to 5 times. Bullets 255gr Missouri Bullet SWC 18BHN. 50 cartridges loaded with 7.5gr of Unique and 50 loaded with 8.2 gr Unique. Brass was FL sized with a RCBS carbide die.

I fired most of the 8.2gr in the BH - and split maybe 10 or 12 of the cases.
I fired most of the 7.5gr in the Rossi and only had a few (2 or 3) split cases.

Is 8.2gr Unique too much?
Can I do better with a die that sizes better?
Today, I received 200 new Starline cases. These unsized new cases easily chamber in the Blackhawk. The RCBS resized cases from my last range trip measure about 5 thousandths of an inch smaller than the new Starline - is this too much resizing? This is why I am thinking maybe a good steel (not carbide) sizing die would be better.

Thoughts?

 

[EricBu]

I've resized literally thousands of 45 Colt with a RCBS carbide die, which have been shot in dozens, if not hundreds of different 45 Colt firearms, from blackhawks, to lever guns, to various SAA clones from all the big italian companies......and never seen that. Either you got a borked die, which is possible.......or you have something else going on. Are you by chance using a FCD to crimp? Any other steps in your process that might a cause? How do your finished rounds compare to the SAAMI spec for diameter? Have you checked that at 4 or 5 different points on the case? Have you run any of the brand new starline through your process, including resizing them, and shooting those loads as a comparison?

 

[AJC1]

I have no idea what measuring devices you have access to but if you have a pin gauge set, you could measure the ring and see if it is factory spec with a phone call. I would venture the cowboy set would reduce your issues if your shooting lead. Redding has a dual ring set of dies that is supposed to help but I've never tried them.

 

[BigBoomD]

I also have a Rossi in 45 colt and will be reloading starting just as soon as I get some suitable powder, like unique. With the oversized chamber that the Rossi’s are known for seems like just overworking the brass might be the culprit? Here is a thread discussing just neck resizing which might not only help reduce blow by, but also work the brass quite a bit less. might even help with accuracy since you’ll be centered up much better in the chamber. Thoughts?
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?295967-45-Colt-Fire-Forming

 

[kidneyboy]

My go to 45 colt load is 8.5gr of Unique under a 250gr coated boolit. No issues out of my Henry. I load on a Lee classic turret and use a Lee FCD.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I use the Lee carbide die set. I load with 8 grains of unique. I have a SW 25-5.

 

[Ru4real]

I have been having issues with split 45 Colt cases for a few years now.

Thoughts?

Anneal your cases and make soft. Heat with torch and air cool.

 

[AJC1]

Anneal your cases and make soft. Heat with torch and air cool.

Since when are we annealing pistol brass?

 

[cfullgraf]

As a note, all machining processes have a specification of a range that is acceptable for the process to meet.

I would not think that you would not get any better sizing from a steel sizing die than a carbide sizing die. But, depending on how the die nestles up to the standards, you could have a die that does work well with your chamber.

I have one set of 45 Colt dies that I was having reloading issues with. Things were not sizing or neck expanding properly. I bought a different manufacturer's die set and most of the problems went away.

The chamber of your rifle may be oversize. Getting a chamber cast will help determine if your chamber is within spec. If you are not comfortable doing this, a good gunsmith and make a cast of the chamber.

Not alot of information but I hope it helps some.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

Since this is happening in the revolver as well as the rifle it sounds like you may have an out of spec sizing die. Contact RCBS before buying anything. I sure would not give up the advantages of a carbide sizer.

 

[BBarn]

For 45 Colt, I use a Hornady sizing die. It measures about 0.004" larger in diameter than my RCBS sizing die. Seems to work fine with cast bullets.

If I need more bullet tension, I'll follow up with the RCBS die set to size only the bullet portion of the case.

 

[Cheesemaker]

Thanks for all of the replies.
@EricBu - Crimping: I am seating and crimping in a single step using the RCBS die, no FCD crimp. Most other cartridges I do seat and crimp separately.
I have reloaded thousands of 44Mag over the years and have never had this issue in Ruger, S&W, Colt and a Rossi 92.
The steps I follow are the same:
Decap
Wet tumble
Resize
Flare mouth
Prime
Powder
Seat
Crimp (In the case of the 45 Colt I seat and crimp in 1 step)

I measured the resized case about 1/2 from the case mouth. I have not processed any of the new Starline brass yet.

A few more maybe relevant points:
Most, maybe all, of these split cases have been shot once or twice (at least) in the Rossi. Could this have weakened the brass?
I do reload 454 Casull (Hornady dies) and 460 S&W (Lee dies) - I will try and resize the 45 Colt in these dies and see if the measurements are different.
I am fortunate enough to have several hundred new Winchester and Remington cases. Maybe an experiment is in order keep Rossi fired brass separate from BH fired brass and see how it goes. I hate to do this as I usually take them both to the range in the same trip and decap and wet tumble them all together afterwards.
I could use Winchester only in the Rossi and Remington only in the BH. I believe I see the Rems more prone to splitting than the Wins.
I have ordered a Lee carbide resizer, they are "cheap enough" and worth trying in case my RCBS die is the issue.

Thanks again everyone. Great feedback.

 

[RealGun]

The Hornady sizing die that I have is larger than RCBS, RCBS Cowboy, or Lee carbide. The brass will be worked less with one of those, to include the expander and lever puller having an easier time.

 

[Ru4real]

Since when are we annealing pistol brass?

When I have several reloads on a batch of cases, and cracks appear on a couple cases in the batch, I anneal and it resets the clock on the brass somewhat. The cracks stop on the batch in question. Especially for cases I’ve uniformed primer pockets, matched headstamps and weight, you know, invested a little more time than typical for pistol cases.

45 Colt and 357 Mag for sure, for me. 45 ACP, 380, etc I have not. I have pistol cases with more than ten reloadings done.

 

[Rule3]

Why don't you try out the NEW brass first. Maybe your OLD brass is worn and tired??

 

[RealGun]

Why don't you try out the NEW brass first. Maybe your OLD brass is worn and tired??

The first hint that something isn't right is the effort needed to size new brass.

 

[EricBu]

Thanks for all of the replies.
@EricBu - Crimping: I am seating and crimping in a single step using the RCBS die, no FCD crimp. Most other cartridges I do seat and crimp separately.
I have reloaded thousands of 44Mag over the years and have never had this issue in Ruger, S&W, Colt and a Rossi 92.
The steps I follow are the same:
Decap
Wet tumble
Resize
Flare mouth
Prime
Powder
Seat
Crimp (In the case of the 45 Colt I seat and crimp in 1 step)

I measured the resized case about 1/2 from the case mouth. I have not processed any of the new Starline brass yet.

A few more maybe relevant points:
Most, maybe all, of these split cases have been shot once or twice (at least) in the Rossi. Could this have weakened the brass?
I do reload 454 Casull (Hornady dies) and 460 S&W (Lee dies) - I will try and resize the 45 Colt in these dies and see if the measurements are different.
I am fortunate enough to have several hundred new Winchester and Remington cases. Maybe an experiment is in order keep Rossi fired brass separate from BH fired brass and see how it goes. I hate to do this as I usually take them both to the range in the same trip and decap and wet tumble them all together afterwards.
I could use Winchester only in the Rossi and Remington only in the BH. I believe I see the Rems more prone to splitting than the Wins.
I have ordered a Lee carbide resizer, they are "cheap enough" and worth trying in case my RCBS die is the issue.

Thanks again everyone. Great feedback.

The above sounds like you have a good plan to test things out. If I had to make a swag on what's going on at this point, I'd probably lean towards two possibilities. Or even a combination of the 2.

1. You've possibly got a die on the outside of the tolerance spec.
2. Your Rossi has an oversize chamber.

It's also possible that your die is on the far edge of the spec, and combined with brass that's been fired in the Rossi at least once......may be enough to overwork the brass so that it splits on a future reloading.

You can narrow it down by coloring or marking 10 pieces of your new starline brass one way, and 10 another way..so you have two sets of ID'd brass, then load both the sets a couple of times...use one set only in the revolver, and the other only in the Rossi.......see if there is a difference after a couple of sessions. You may even not see the problem with the Starline to be honest, as it's the thickest modern brass for 45 Colt I've found. If it ends up looking like a die issue, call RCBS, they will replace it without batting an eye.

 

[noylj]

You could deprime with Lee universal decapping die and size with the Lee FCD with crimp guts removed, Expand and bell case, seat bullet, and try to push bullet into case with thumb pressure. If bullet moves, is loose, or COL changes, you need to go back to regular sizing die. Otherwise, you're good to go.
Forget the FCD for crimping. There is only one die for roll crimping--Redding's Profile Crimp die. I found the FCD die was second best, for jacketed bullets only, but it produced larger groups than loads with the Redding die. All other roll crimp dies produced 25 yard groups that were 1-3 inches larger. For me, the FCD dies did not work well with my lead bullets. It amazed me the effect different crimp dies had. For taper crimp, no die ever did better and, for me, specific taper crimp diameter had no effect on accuracy.
If the chamber doesn't meet SAAMI specs, it is unsafe.

 

[Bartojc]

I have been having issues with split 45 Colt cases for a few years now. Search this forum for "45 split" titles only, and you will find my last thread on it. I can't believe I posted that 5 1/2 years ago
I have lived with some splits since then and I figured it was a loose chamber in my Rossi 92 lever gun. Since then I have acquired a new Ruger BH (new model).

A few weeks ago I went to the range with around 100 45 Colt rounds. Rossi 92 and Ruger BH, brass (Remington and Winchester) reloaded 3 to 5 times. Bullets 255gr Missouri Bullet SWC 18BHN. 50 cartridges loaded with 7.5gr of Unique and 50 loaded with 8.2 gr Unique. Brass was FL sized with a RCBS carbide die.

I fired most of the 8.2gr in the BH - and split maybe 10 or 12 of the cases.
I fired most of the 7.5gr in the Rossi and only had a few (2 or 3) split cases.

Is 8.2gr Unique too much?
Can I do better with a die that sizes better?
Today, I received 200 new Starline cases. These unsized new cases easily chamber in the Blackhawk. The RCBS resized cases from my last range trip measure about 5 thousandths of an inch smaller than the new Starline - is this too much resizing? This is why I am thinking maybe a good steel (not carbide) sizing die would be better.

Thoughts?

At first thought I'd say your brass is old, tired, and brittle. I would think 8.2gr Unique should be fine. I usually use 8 for a softish load in My Blackhawk, but I've used more and never had an issue.

I will also admit I've never done a before and after measurement on a 45 Colt case. You said the new Starline cases chamber yet a resized case is .005 smaller than the Starline. That seems like a lot to me but I don't know. Maybe you have a buggered die ? Do you have access to another sizing die from a friend ? Seems like overworked brass to me, but you say you have had the issue for a while so presumably the issue exists with less worked brass ?

If the new brass works without splits you'll know it was tired brass. What you wont know though is if you are still overworking the brass, and you new brass will become brittle in short order... 3-5 times reloaded. I have 45 Cold brass that I have loaded more than 5 times and have never had a split. I suspect there are people here who can't count how many times their 45 Colt brass has been loaded.

Let us know how the Starline works out.

-Jeff

 

[Cheesemaker]

Again. thanks everyone for the replies. I have not loaded any of the Starline yet.

I took a few measurements today with my calipers. Measurements taken about 1/2" from the case mouth.
New Remington brass, unsized: 0.474
New Winchester brass, unsized: 0.476
New Starline brass, unsized: 0.475

New brass, all 3 brands, sized in a RCBS carbide die: 0.469
New brass, all 3 brands, sized in a LEE carbide die: 0.471
New brass, all 3 brands, sized in a Hornady 454 Casull carbide die: 0.470
New brass, all 3 brands, sized in a LEE 460 S&W carbide die: 0.471

I measured the rim end of the chamber of my Blackhawk: 0.481. I don't have tools to measure anywhere else in the chamber. I believe 45Colt chambers are tapered so I would expect this number to be less closer to the case mouth. I am not sure how/if I could measure my Rossi chamber.
The chamber measurement helps explains why new unsized brass easily drops into the BH chambers.
I do not have any fired unsized brass to check dimensions after firing.

Do these numbers look normal? Assuming fired cases are in the 0.481 (chamber size) range is sizing to 0.469 to 0.471 excessive?
The RCBS die resizes 2 thousandths of an inch more than the LEE - is this a lot?

 

[Riomouse911]

The above sounds like you have a good plan to test things out. If I had to make a swag on what's going on at this point, I'd probably lean towards two possibilities. Or even a combination of the 2.

1. You've possibly got a die on the outside of the tolerance spec.
2. Your Rossi has an oversize chamber.

It's also possible that your die is on the far edge of the spec, and combined with brass that's been fired in the Rossi at least once......may be enough to overwork the brass so that it splits on a future reloading.

You can narrow it down by coloring or marking 10 pieces of your new starline brass one way, and 10 another way..so you have two sets of ID'd brass, then load both the sets a couple of times...use one set only in the revolver, and the other only in the Rossi.......see if there is a difference after a couple of sessions. You may even not see the problem with the Starline to be honest, as it's the thickest modern brass for 45 Colt I've found. If it ends up looking like a die issue, call RCBS, they will replace it without batting an eye.

Beat me to it .

Use a sharpie, mark the cases and keep them separate. Back when I had a Colt SAA clone and my old Vaquero, I would mark “magnum” Ruger loads that way to keep them out of my Uberti. I still have a box left from that era:



Between the two I’ll bet the rifles chamber is the culprit, you may need to keep them separate to keep this from happening.

When you figure it out let us know how you solved the issue .

Stay safe.

 

[FROGO207]

When I got my first 45 Colt I used colt brass and a 45 ACP carbide die set and lead 230 grain bullets to load some rounds until I got propper dies. Started splitting assorted range brass after 2 reloads. The Lee carbide 45 Colt dies work without splitting cases anymore. You will not know for certain what your problem is until you cast your chambers and measure the results. Cerro safe is not that expensive and will give you answers.

 

[Dane R. Marley]

I plan on buying RCBS Cowboy Dies for 45 LC and 45-70.

 

[RealGun]

I plan on buying RCBS Cowboy Dies for 45 LC and 45-70.

The crimp die will serve well, but my cowboy sizer gave the smallest OD (.468) of the various dies I had. I went with the Hornady sizer yielding .470 and a Lyman M die, retaining only the cowboy crimp, which gave great results with lead bullet size. This all works great with .452 bullets, but .454 is asking for problems, where a replacement cylinder is a better way to match bore diameter to throats on 45 Colt.