Records Confirm at Least Seven ATF Gun Show 'Stings'

Status
Not open for further replies.

Desertdog

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
1,980
Location
Ridgecrest Ca
Records Confirm at Least Seven ATF Gun Show 'Stings'
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200509\SPE20050901a.html



(CNSNews.com) - Virginia State Police records confirm that at least seven gun show "sting" operations since July of 2004 have targeted gun buyers in the Richmond, Va., area. The documents support allegations that protected information may have been illegally shared with local police and gun buyers' relatives and neighbors.

Cybercast News Service previously reported that nearly 500 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) agents, state troopers, county and city police officers participated in an "ATF Task Force" targeting the Showmasters gun show in Richmond, Va., on Aug. 13 and 14.

Following that initial report, Cybercast News Service obtained Virginia State Police (VSP) records that show at least six other stings have been conducted in the Richmond area since the summer of last year.

According to a four page undated memo written by Virginia State Police (VSP) Capt. Robert G. Kemmler and obtained in a Freedom of Information Act request (FOIA), the law enforcement activities at the Showmasters gun show on Aug. 13-14 involved "the same method of operation as previous gun shows.

"The Department (VSP) has participated in numerous Gun Show Operations at the Showplace over the past year," the memo states. "This is the first operation at the fairgrounds and the first operation that included the Henrico (County) Police Department."

C&E Gun Shows holds several shows each year at The Showplace Exhibition Center, located inside the city limits of Richmond, Va. According to the VSP memo, gun show sting operations were conducted there on July 10-11, Oct. 16-17 and Dec. 4-5, 2004 and Jan. 15-16, March 5-6 and May 21-22, 2005. Nearly 1,000 man hours were dedicated to the activities.

According to the VSP memo, the gun show stings are part of "an active gang related firearm program to reduce the number of firearms being purchased (by) and transferred to prohibited persons who may be involved in criminal and gang related activities.

"One of the major projects is the interdiction of firearms to prohibited persons at a primary firearm show on the border of the City of Richmond," the memo states.

But Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, told Cybercast News Service that the VSP explanation is illogical.

"I think it's a joke because, according to the Department of Justice, 0.7 percent of guns used in crimes come from gun shows," Van Cleave said. "So, there's much better ways they could be spending their time."

The Department of Justice has commissioned two studies on the topic of where criminals get their guns. In a 1997 survey of convicted felons, the National Institute of Justice found that "less than two percent reported obtaining [firearms] from a gun show." Three years later, the Bureau of Justice Statistics determined, as Van Cleave cited, that 0.7 percent of guns used by criminals were obtained from a gun show.

Richard Gardiner, a lawyer specializing in firearms law litigation with more than 20 years experience dealing with the ATF, said he was curious about another section of the VSP memo, which stated that the law enforcement task force had "deterred" 21 individuals from purchasing guns.

"I'd like to know ... who those 21 people were; whether they were prohibited persons who never got as far as filling out the form and, therefore, couldn't be prosecuted for anything," Gardiner said, "or whether they were people who were black or women who the agents went up and had a chat with and they said, 'Forget it, I'm getting out of here. I don't want to stick around these guys,' even though it would have been perfectly lawful for them to purchase."

The Virginia State Police memo also details how the ATF retrieved information from each gun buyer's transaction form to determine where they lived so that a so-called "residence check" could be conducted.

"f the purchaser was located in a certain area of either the City of Richmond or the County of Henrico, ATF personnel would direct either the Richmond PD or Henrico PD Residence Check Team to go by the residence of the individual whose information was contained on the ATF 4473 form to determine if the individual resided at the residence," the VSP memo states.

Based on what the agents found, "they (ATF) would permit the transfer of the firearm or conduct further questions of the purchaser," according to the VSP document.

But Gardiner said the memo raises a number of questions about the legality of the actions taken by federal, state, county and local agents and officers.

"What is state and local law enforcement doing being 'dispatched' to people's houses to do that?" Gardiner asked. "They have no authority under the state law, that I'm aware of, to make that kind of investigation about whether somebody is a resident of the state."

State, county and municipal police agencies are "creatures of statute," according to Gardiner.

"They have only such authority as the law gives them. They have no authority to do what they think is appropriate. If the General Assembly of Virginia wanted to give them that authority, of course, it could consider it and possibly do it," he continued. "But it, certainly, has not done that."

Gardiner also believes the ATF agents violated federal law by providing the information to local police officials that in turn was used to conduct the residence checks. The statute authorizes information from those forms to be released only to state and local police "with respect to the identification of persons prohibited from purchasing or receiving firearms or ammunition who have purchased or received firearms or ammunition."

"ATF doesn't have any authority to give them that information, even assuming that the legislature had given both state and local police the authority to do stuff like that," Gardiner said. "There's no authority under federal law for ATF to make such a request."

Gardiner said that authorization to share information also imposes limits.

"Congress has specifically addressed this question of ATF's authority to give out information to state and local and, indeed, even to other federal law enforcement agencies and said, 'Here's what they can do,'" Gardiner explained. "And the long standing rules of law are that if the Congress specifically gives them this authority, it has denied them all other authority. So ATF had no authority to do what they were doing."

David Browne, a gun owner and attorney living in Henrico County, attended the Showmasters Gun Show on both Aug. 13 and 14 and agrees that the actions of both ATF and the cooperating law enforcement agencies should be examined.

"I think it certainly has a chilling effect in general," Browne said. "This was a targeted operation and officers were only sent to certain neighborhoods. I would hate to find out the hard way that I happened to live in what they considered to be the 'wrong neighborhood,' and then have my neighbors being told all these things."

The Henrico County Police Department also responded to a FOIA request from Browne with six pages of heavily redacted documents and a letter claiming that the obscured portions are "not subject to mandatory disclosure" under the Virginia FOIA law. The documents did contain language confirming that officers did disclose protected information about gun purchasers to their relatives in at least one instance.

"(Unidentified officers conducted) a residence check and were advised by the female purchaser's parents that she had no reason to buy a gun other than for her boyfriend," stated one mostly redacted email signed, "The Strike Force."

Gardiner believes such actions could result in lawsuits being filed against all of the agencies or officers involved.

"I think you would have an action against the state and local agents or officers for violation of your federal statutory rights," Gardiner said. "You can recover against individual federal agents for violation of your constitutional rights but not your statutory rights."

Any such litigation might provide a deterrent to future gun show crackdowns, Gardiner said.

"It's been my experience, because I've been involved in a fair number of suits involving ATF, that, if you sue them, you'll never hear from them again because they're the classic schoolyard bully. For everyone who fights back, there are ten people who they can intimidate so, if you fight back, they'll move on to the other ten," Gardiner concluded. "If you go after them, they'll leave you alone forever because they don't want to deal with people who aren't afraid of them."

Cybercast News Service has made more than a dozen calls to ATF seeking comment for both its original investigation and this follow-up report. To date, ATF has had no on-the-record response to either article.
 
Is there some problem at these shows in Virginia that would bring this level of attention by the BATFE and local law enforcement? I doubt they'd be doing this without a reason, and I doubt they'll ever tell us why they were doing it.
 
Isn't it great to see the SS is alive and doing well in America. Guess we missed a few all those years ago in Germany and they came her and found new followers..
 
I doubt they'd be doing this without a reason, and I doubt they'll ever tell us why they were doing it.

Yup. The "reason" is that they are tyrannical dictators who believe that they, and only they, have the right to own guns.
 
""f the purchaser was located in a certain area of either the City of Richmond or the County of Henrico..."

Oh man, I can name the neighborhoods. Dey's afta da po folks. When I say Church Hill I don't think it's the expensive renovated area of Church Hill around St. John's Church - home of "Give me liberty or give me...etc." Nope, wouldn't think so. :)

Why don't they let them buy the guns and then follow them home and arrest them if the addresses don't match. Oops. Don't want to give them ideas.


There has been nothing in the news about a rash of gun show violations. Well, other than the one's by law enforcement.

John
 
Try this reason:

"Is there some problem at these shows in Virginia that would bring this level of attention by the BATFE and local law enforcement?"

Yes. Virginia surrounds the cesspool known as the District of Columbia; one of this nations' top cities for violent crime.

Rather than admit its own citizens are the problem, Congress and the DC mayor like to blame Virginia's "lax gun laws" and claim the district is flooded with illegal guns from the commonwealth.

Well, if Virginia has such lax laws, why doesn't IT have the unchecked violent crime DC does? :scrutiny:

If DC citizens were allowed to own guns the way Virginians are, wouldn't that act as a deterrent to crime?

Mayhaps the REAL reason for the disparity in crime is because, as a percentage of population, DC has a far higher scum content? :uhoh:

Just a thought....
 
so we paid for 1000 man hours of endless invasion of privacy and deciet to end up with one possible straw buy?
"(Unidentified officers conducted) a residence check and were advised by the female purchaser's parents that she had no reason to buy a gun other than for her boyfriend,"

nice going there JBTs
 
And that they truely believed they could get away with it.

From what I can see - they did get away with it. I haven't seen any action taken to make sure this doesn't happen again.
 
And that they truely believed they could get away with it.


They did get away with it, and continue to do so. I doubt there will be any blowback on the ATF for this, they will skate. I just wonder if VA is the only area this has happened, or there are other areas (states) that we have not heard about yet.
 
"Profiling" is not such a bad thing and is a useful tool for Law Enforcement, but ONLY when used within the law.

The problem here is not undercover officers checking for straw purchases it is their trampling of constitutional and statutory rights.

I sincerely hope somebody sues somebody!

G
 
standingwolf...you hit the nail square on it.

I'm sure they're helping the local leftist extremists work up a case against the oft-cited "gun show loop hole."
I remember 4 or 5 years ago some guy at a show kept following me around trying to get me to go out to his truck in the parking lot to show me his collection.."cheap" in the back of his pickup-I saw the guys badge on his belt sticking out under the shirt.when I told him I saw his badge and to go entrap someone else,he immediatly left...this was a cleveland area show.they are there.
 
gm, i'd get ANGRY. i ahve a similar experience regularly- i look funny, so at clubs, UC cops always ask me for drugs. i yell at them. then i tell them i am going to have security remove them as they are "some loser asking me for drugs"
even though i know they are police.

at the gun show, i would be "hey can we get a cop over here, this guy is trying to do an illegal sale!"
 
What's interesting to me is that government officials are apparently trying to make Virginia as unfree as DC is, instead of trying to make DC as free as Virginia is.

It's a mindset thing, and the government has it bass ackwards.

But then again, the great unwashed that believe only what the Idiot Box tells them don't know this, because the Great Broadcasters in the Sky won't report it due to bias.
 
What's interesting to me is that government officials are apparently trying to make Virginia as unfree as DC is, instead of trying to make DC as free as Virginia is.
It's a peculiar quirk of life that cancer spreads, but you have to work to stay in good health.
 
Just like with a new product, there has to be a decision made as to where the "test market" will be. It appears that ATF's product is "closing the gunshow loophole" and VA is the "test market". If they can make their fascist tactics work there then they can move on to other areas of the country. If not, it means they need to refine the process and the people of VA will be the poor souls upon which they try out their new infringments.
 
As Judge A. Napalitano says, why don't cops get arrested and tried when they attempt to instigate criminal activity? I would if I did that. Are they above the law? The laws in this country should apply to each person in exactly the same way. If a cop attempts to sell you something illegal, they should go to jail. That would put a stop to it.
 
Last edited:
Is it safe to assume that the reason for the stings is a recent upsurge of crime guns found traced to VA gun shows, in the northeast, DC, etc.? Or is this just pure-dee unprovoked harassment?
 
Classic statist behavior. Rather than admit DC is wrong in its gun policies it says the reason they fail is because they made me do it. "They" in DC's case is Virginia, Indiana in Illinios' case, Arizona in Cali's case, ad nauseum.

Just admit you were wrong, fix the mistake, and move on to the next policy failure.
 
I haven't seen any reports of gun running in the Richmond paper or the Washington Post.

I still say VA law does not allow the State Police to delay responding to the background check phone call while the local police go knocking on doors. The Code of Virginia is there for all to read.

John...nope, I'm not going to gun shows anymore, nope, 30 years is enough, I have enough guns, and ammo, nope, I ain't a going no more. Did I fool ya? :)

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA too
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top