M2HMGHB
Member
Need info on a Red Chieftan double barrel shotgun in 12 guage. Made prior 1939, indicated by a blank check dated the 1930s in the stock. Need info on where to find a stock and possibly parts.
Scott
P.S. TIA
Scott
P.S. TIA
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Red Chieftan Dbl shotgun
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I have not been able to trace that particular brand, but thousands of such guns were made or imported in the period roughly from 1880 to 1930, mostly by companies that are long out of business. It is very likely that the barrels are Damascus or "twist", made from strips of iron and steel welded together and wrapped around an iron bar to make a barrel. They are weak and I strongly recommend that no Damascus barrel gun be fired with any type of load.
Parts are, for practical purposes, unavailable. A stock could be made from a blank by a good stockmaker, but I guarantee he would charge many times what the gun is worth, which is essentially nothing. The same would hold true for parts.
If the gun retains any appearance of being whole, I recommend it be deactivated by removing the firing pins and welding up the holes. Then hang it on the wall and tell folks how your great great great grand daddy used it to win the West.
Jim
Parts are, for practical purposes, unavailable. A stock could be made from a blank by a good stockmaker, but I guarantee he would charge many times what the gun is worth, which is essentially nothing. The same would hold true for parts.
If the gun retains any appearance of being whole, I recommend it be deactivated by removing the firing pins and welding up the holes. Then hang it on the wall and tell folks how your great great great grand daddy used it to win the West.
Jim
Before deactivating or destroying any old suspected DAMASCUS barreled shotgun have it checked to see if is truly DAMASCUS or DAMASCUS ETCHED ( MEANING MADE TO LOOK LIKE DAMASCUS BUT REALLY A BORED SOLID STEEL BARREL). Too many old guns are destroyed because of " SUSPECTED " DAMASCUS BARRELS. Then if not DAMASCUS , AND if the chambers are the right length ( very important, SOME OLD SHOTGUNS HAD 2 1/2 IN CHAMBERS , NOT THE PRESENT DAY 2 3/4 IN OR LARGER ), AND if the shotgun is in good condition ( also very important ). Shoot it and enjoy it like it was designed to be shot. But check or have these things checked before shooting. GOOD LUCK.
M2HMGHB
Member
The barrels are stamped for smokeless powder.
Hi, guys,
Bearman, you have a good point, but I generally recommend against shooting any very old shotgun, even if the barrels are steel and marked for smokeless powder. You mention part of the reason, the inability to obtain the right length shells for the older chambers, with the result that the shooter often uses 2 3/4" shells, even magnum loads. Another point is that the quality of steel in, say 1910, was not the same as it is today. I may have been too abrupt in mentioning deactivating the gun, even if it has Damascus barrels, but I was considering not only the present owner but future owners.
This is not theory. I recall one case where an old Damascus gun, inherited from a relative, was brought in missing its firing pins. It was evident to me that someone had deliberately removed the pins, and I refused to make new ones. But the boss insisted we do what the customer wanted, so I did, but warned the customer not to shoot it. He assured me he understood and just wanted it complete for looks as a wall hanger. Two weeks later, the gun blew up with a 2 3/4 Magnum load and took part of the owner's hand off. We were not sued, but probably could have been had the guy thought of it. (We did have his written order and there were witnesses to my warning, but I don't know whether we would have won or not.)
If I can see the gun, and check it out carefully, the recommendation might be different, but sight unseen I will take the route of caution. Aside from barrel material, too many of those old guns are flat worn out. I might not deactivate them but most are loose, with badly worn lugs and hinge pins, barrels thinned from decades of cleaning, and large amounts of rust on and into the barrels.
The fact that the question involved a new stock and parts, and an unknown name (we are not talking an AA Parker here) indicated to me that the gun has at least some problems.
I need not point out that I may make recommendations, but they are just that; anyone is free to do as they wish with the old guns.
Jim
Bearman, you have a good point, but I generally recommend against shooting any very old shotgun, even if the barrels are steel and marked for smokeless powder. You mention part of the reason, the inability to obtain the right length shells for the older chambers, with the result that the shooter often uses 2 3/4" shells, even magnum loads. Another point is that the quality of steel in, say 1910, was not the same as it is today. I may have been too abrupt in mentioning deactivating the gun, even if it has Damascus barrels, but I was considering not only the present owner but future owners.
This is not theory. I recall one case where an old Damascus gun, inherited from a relative, was brought in missing its firing pins. It was evident to me that someone had deliberately removed the pins, and I refused to make new ones. But the boss insisted we do what the customer wanted, so I did, but warned the customer not to shoot it. He assured me he understood and just wanted it complete for looks as a wall hanger. Two weeks later, the gun blew up with a 2 3/4 Magnum load and took part of the owner's hand off. We were not sued, but probably could have been had the guy thought of it. (We did have his written order and there were witnesses to my warning, but I don't know whether we would have won or not.)
If I can see the gun, and check it out carefully, the recommendation might be different, but sight unseen I will take the route of caution. Aside from barrel material, too many of those old guns are flat worn out. I might not deactivate them but most are loose, with badly worn lugs and hinge pins, barrels thinned from decades of cleaning, and large amounts of rust on and into the barrels.
The fact that the question involved a new stock and parts, and an unknown name (we are not talking an AA Parker here) indicated to me that the gun has at least some problems.
I need not point out that I may make recommendations, but they are just that; anyone is free to do as they wish with the old guns.
Jim
M2HMGHB
Member
The gun has been shot by my father 10 years ago and is not worn out. The stock is just dry rotted and needs to be replaced, he just toldme that when i was reading him the responses.:banghead: Thannks guys.
gamachinist
Member
M2HMGHB,
Go to this site and ask:
http://www.gunshop.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi
they are all double guns all the time.
It probably is a Cresent if it was US made.Acording to my Blue Book,Cresent marked thier guns with over 100 various brands under contract.
Or it could be Belgian,look for proof marks.
Have the chambers checked with a chamberlength gauge before you shoot it.Many older name brand guns from that time had shorter chambers for the paper shell of the day.One of my old Savages and my Ithaca Crass have slightly short chambers.I haven't checked the Fulton and the Cresent I bought recently,but they are probably the same.
If the barrels have enough metal in them forward of the chamber,it could be lengthened to 2 3/4" for low pressure shells.
In case you didn't know,the length of the brass head is no indication of the pressure the shell generates,and I was surprised to learn that the "promo" (read cheap) shells usually have higher pressures than the premium shells.One reason for this I think is that most of the budget shells have a straight shot cup instead of a cushion wad.
One other note,in the past (I haven't checked this recently)Remington promo shells are a little shorter (about 1/16") than 2 3/4".They may do it so that the shorter shot cup will fit in the case with out any fillers.
Hope this helps,Robert.
Go to this site and ask:
http://www.gunshop.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi
they are all double guns all the time.
It probably is a Cresent if it was US made.Acording to my Blue Book,Cresent marked thier guns with over 100 various brands under contract.
Or it could be Belgian,look for proof marks.
Have the chambers checked with a chamberlength gauge before you shoot it.Many older name brand guns from that time had shorter chambers for the paper shell of the day.One of my old Savages and my Ithaca Crass have slightly short chambers.I haven't checked the Fulton and the Cresent I bought recently,but they are probably the same.
If the barrels have enough metal in them forward of the chamber,it could be lengthened to 2 3/4" for low pressure shells.
In case you didn't know,the length of the brass head is no indication of the pressure the shell generates,and I was surprised to learn that the "promo" (read cheap) shells usually have higher pressures than the premium shells.One reason for this I think is that most of the budget shells have a straight shot cup instead of a cushion wad.
One other note,in the past (I haven't checked this recently)Remington promo shells are a little shorter (about 1/16") than 2 3/4".They may do it so that the shorter shot cup will fit in the case with out any fillers.
Hope this helps,Robert.
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