Reduce Loads With Hodgdon H4895 by 60%

[Load Master]

Have any of you tried the reduce loads with Hodgdon H4895?

Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is recommended.

Find the H4895 load in the Reloading Data Center for your caliber and bullet.

Take the maximum H4895 charge listed and multiply by 60% (.6). The load may be adjusted up from there to achieve the desired velocity and accuracy.

This works only where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use in a cartridge where H4895 is not shown.

Example: 30-06 cartridge with 125 gr. Sierra SP bullet. Max load shown in the Reloading Data Center with H4895 is 53.7 grains. 53.7 X .6 = 32.2 grains. The shooter begins with this load, and may work up from there to obtain the desired velocity and accuracy for his reduced load.

Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed, 913-362-9455.

LINK

 

[manithree]

I've done it in .30-06, .22-250, and 8mm Mauser. The POI was a little off, but they were very accurate at 50 yards, and fun, quiet plinking ammo.

 

[Load Master]

I'll have to buy some H4895 to give it a try.

 

[res45]

Currently working on a cast bullet project for my Mosin 91/30 using H-4895 and the Lee 185 gr. RN gas check bullet as well as the Lee 170 gr RNFP PC'ed and sized to .314". Currently up to around 78% load density @1730 fps. with room to go. Accuracy is about 1" at 50 yds. with the irons.

 

[243winxb]

I used IMR 4895. Had 1 round that the brass didnt seal well. Soot covered the 30-06 case. Fine in 30-30 with cast 173gr gas checked bullets. Better maybe if neck sizing only?? Or using H4895.

 

[rocirish]

Yes, you need to use H4895

 

[Bartojc]

I experimented quite a bit with it in 30-06 this summer. I did not reduce the full 60%. I used a 125 gr bullet and attempted to duplicate Remington reduced recoil rounds. I needed up with a load I will use to hunt with in two weeks, and they are printing right around 1" at 100 yards. POI is same as full power 150 gr Remington Core-Lokt.

I did experiment early on with reaction down around 65%-70% of max. You will tend to get an amount of soot as the brass does not expand enough under the lighter load.

Jeff

 

[MARKMALL]

I down loaded a 358 Win with H4895 for my son. I used jacketed pistol bullets.

 

[crest117]

I often use a reduced .308 load of 33grains of H4895 with a Hornady 150 gr. FMJ in my Savage Axis. Gives mild recoil and will group 1 inch at 100 yds. For target shooting I see no reason to push for higher velocity.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I used the H4895 reduced loads in the 30-06 and .308 and they performed as advertised. It's also a good solution for loading lead bullets in rifle ammo too.

 

[Lafitte]

I have used H4895 downloaded 60% in 30/06 using both 125 and 150 grain bullets. Works nice, I am going to play with it a bit to get both weights shooting to poa (or reasonably close) without changing scope zero.

Lafitte

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I have used them pretty extensively.
We load .308 with H4895 and 125 grain Nosler BT bullets for my dad's gun. It is a small ring Mauser that started life as a 7x57 and was converted by the Spanish. It wasn't designed for the higher pressure .308 Win ammunition so we do it this way to keep shooting it and keep the pressures down to safe levels.

I also loaded some .30-06 ammo with the same bullet. My 13 year old daughter can shoot my '06 with no problem with them. I don't think she could handle full throttle loads.

 

[I Corps 1970]

If you read Sharpe's book on Handloading from the 30-40s he will tell you that you should NEVER used reduced loads with IMR powders and DuPont said the same thing. From the wording I got the idea that he had an "event". Many firearms have been BROKEN (not bulged) with Bullseye, Red Dot, 2400, IMR 3031, IMR 4831. I used to be the Gunsmith/Custom Shop/Tech advisor for Shiloh Rifle manufacturing. Using any smokeless in the old large capacity BP cases to duplicate BP velocity is poison. For example, after a long conversation with a new owner one day where I repeatedly told him to NOT use 3031 he blew a 50-140 Shiloh into FRAGMENTS about 5" of barrel and the action to the rear breech block mortise wall. 53 gr. was the charge because he did not want to bother with BP. The only reason he did not lose a hand was he was shooting from the bench . (in 45-70 the action and barrel steel was tested HP White to 50000 with no issues, not even stuck cases). In the BP (and modern as well) world there is a frightening number of blown guns from reduced charge with excess air space that allows the primer flame to flash over the charge rather than into the rear. The number of blown modern handguns with reduced charges in large cases like the 357 mag are legend. In most cases its 38 special light loads of Bullseye in a 357 mag case while a FULL CASE would not replicate the damage. But 6.5 gr of Red Dot has blown 45 colts just by reducing the bullet weight 50 grains from 250 to 200 which increased the capacity just enough (double charge this is not enough to even bulge a cylinder in later tests). Then the ringed chambers, some in valuable old match rifles, from using "safe" powders for reduced loads or using published loading manual data in 45-70. Unique is a horrible chamber ringer in Ruger #1 loadings in the Lyman book. 100s of rings in the same chamber due to pressure wave phenomenon. (it happens in artillery pieces too, rings and blown guns on test ranges). Then we have a powder maker publishing loads for the Trapdoor at pressure levels intended for the 20th c HV loadings 28000. When I emailed them telling them this was dangerous they said it was "SAAMI standard". Never mind the Trapdoor far predates SAAMI or smokeless powder. I have had two shooter tell me of their repro TDs auto ejecting with BP loads (the cam angles were a little "off". One had a groove cut in his hair by the case.... So forgive me if I don't trust loading data. Expecially if it tells me to shoot 300 gr bullets from a TD Springfield at 1900 fps. The old max (from Lyman) for the TD was about 16000-18000 lup or maybe cup. One of these was blown with 24 grains of 2400 by a big name in handloading "used the load for 20 years" . One day the stars aligned right and he lost part of his left hand. So forgive me if I don't use reduced loads of smokeless. UNLESS I use a filler like Puff-Lon but this requires care and careful development as well. The problems with this in Cowboy Action shooting resulted in the "Trail Boss" powder, a bulky low energy powder that allows good case fill in handguns at least with minimum air space and moderate velocity......

 

[reddog81]

Is there any proof of light 38 special loads blowing up handguns or just internet hearsay?

 

[GooseGestapo]

More than internet "heresay" !

However, in my experience in 30yrs of PPC competition where Bullseye in .38spl is the norm, it's usually a double or triple charge following a squib resulting in a bullet lodged in the barrel. Double charge behind a bore obstruction is big trouble.

I have intentionally shot out a "squib" in a big match, ($150 entry fee!) to avoid blowing a match. Usually got away with it. A squib shot out of a bull barrel match gun will usually still hit the 10ring of a B-27 at 7yds. 2.7gr under a 148gr wadcutter would usually NOT bulge a barrel, but 3.0 with a 148gr hollow base wadcutter would. I've also seen split forcing cones from blown skirts from overcharges of Bullseye and hollow base wadcutters.

IMO, SEE episodes are related to bore obstruction phenomena. Never had one myself, but have witnessed a couple. One was positively a bore obstruction. Second is believed to have been a triple charge after inspections of ammunition.

As to original content; I use 38.0gr of H4895 under a Lee 200gr RNGC for a practice load from my M1 Garands. Hits POA/POI at 50yds with base 200yd zero. Allow cheap practice of kneeling and "awful hand" shooting positions.

 

[Archie]

Is there any proof of light 38 special loads blowing up handguns or just internet hearsay?

Depends on what one accept as 'proof'. I have not seen (been present) for a detonation caused by a smaller than usual powder charge in a .38 Special case. Then again, I've never seen a .38 Special blow up under any circumstances; I've never seen a volcano erupt, either but I'm sure the latter two have happened.

I have read a couple of accounts of the light powder charge in a .38 Special being blamed for an explosion. The loader and owner was positive - and seemed knowledgeable and rational - this was in fact, a 'light' load and not a double charge. Other opinions were it was caused by a double charge.

The same thing occurs - or is claimed to occur - in rifles. A relatively small load of a 'slow' burning powder in a large case will explode. It seems.

The trouble with both is no one, NO ONE, can do it on command. Which is another way of saying, no one really knows why it happens.

Let's look at reality. How light does a .38 Special round have to be loaded? The Lyman #50 manual has loads for a wadcutter bullet with under three grains of several powders. Most rifles can be downloaded with smaller charges of handgun powder firing cast bullets. There's really not much need for 'reduced' loads - in contrast with 'light, starting loads' - in rifles.

The Hodgdon announcement is rather new. Conventional wisdom has been not to severely reduce slower powders without a guide.

 

[reddog81]

Sticking a bullet in the barrel and then firing another round is obviously a recipe for disaster and not the same as the supposed detonation that can occur with light handgun loads...

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Sticking a bullet in the barrel and then firing another round is obviously a recipe for disaster and not the same as the supposed detonation that can occur with light handgun loads...

I have a buddy that was shooting light .38 special loads in a Ruger Blackhawk .357 mag and had that happen.
Thankfully it did not result in catastrophic disaster, but it bulged the barrel and ruined it.
He sent it in to Ruger and told them what happened and asked how much to replace the barrel.

I can't remember if he said they replaced the barrel or sent him another revolver but they wouldn't let him pay, even though he told them exactly what happened.

I can only think it was the fact that Rugers are overbuilt that saved his hand.
Of course I've seen pics of kabooms with Rugers too, so they aren't immune to stupidity.

 

[crest117]

The original question had to do with reduced loads of H4895. These loads are perfectly safe as long as you follow Hodgdon's advice. That is, you may safely reduce a load as low as 60% of maximum charge listed. Do not use any filler. Note, that is H4895, not IMR4895. Such loads are safe, economical, accurate and easy on both the rifle and the shooter.

 

[Laphroaig]

H4895, not IMR4895

Does anyone know why this is the case? Is the chemistry different between these 2 powders? Some other reason, other than Hodgden said so?

The reason I'm asking is that the "old timers" at our club used to use reduced loads of IMR 4895 (most probably military pull down ) to load cast bullets in their 1903 rifles. A conversation deviated to this topic at the club tonight, and the loads were remembered to be in the 50% range. 22 grains with 174 cast bullets was quoted as the preferred load.

Many of these guys have passed on, and the remaining group don't come around much anymore, but from what I remember, they all had their appendages and eyes intact. A few lucky fellows were able to buy or inherit their rifles which are all still in one piece. Just curious as they seemed to use reduced loads of IMR 4895 without any issues.

 

[Load Master]

Does anyone know why this is the case? Is the chemistry different between these 2 powders? Some other reason, other than Hodgden said so?

The reason I'm asking is that the "old timers" at our club used to use reduced loads of IMR 4895 (most probably military pull down ) to load cast bullets in their 1903 rifles. A conversation deviated to this topic at the club tonight, and the loads were remembered to be in the 50% range. 22 grains with 174 cast bullets was quoted as the preferred load.

Many of these guys have passed on, and the remaining group don't come around much anymore, but from what I remember, they all had their appendages and eyes intact. A few lucky fellows were able to buy or inherit their rifles which are all still in one piece. Just curious as they seemed to use reduced loads of IMR 4895 without any issues.

Good question. Maybe it would a good one to ask Hodgdon directly? Here is their contact from the publication: "Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed, 913-362-9455."

 

[res45]

Does anyone know why this is the case? Is the chemistry different between these 2 powders? Some other reason, other than Hodgden said so?

The reason I'm asking is that the "old timers" at our club used to use reduced loads of IMR 4895 (most probably military pull down ) to load cast bullets in their 1903 rifles. A conversation deviated to this topic at the club tonight, and the loads were remembered to be in the 50% range. 22 grains with 174 cast bullets was quoted as the preferred load.

Many of these guys have passed on, and the remaining group don't come around much anymore, but from what I remember, they all had their appendages and eyes intact. A few lucky fellows were able to buy or inherit their rifles which are all still in one piece. Just curious as they seemed to use reduced loads of IMR 4895 without any issues.

"Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges."

Personally I haven't used IMR-4895 along with a Dacron filler for reduced cast bullet loads but it's on the list of things to do and I know a few who do and have done so for years with no issues,in fact they have had great success in military style shooting matches using that powder / cast lead bullet combo,velocity in general runs in the 1800 to 1900 fps. range with 28 to 30 grs. and a 3/4 gr. Dacron filler to take up the air space between the base of the bullet and powder,the filler actually improves the shot to shot consistency. I know of no recommendations using IMR-4895 reduced loads with jacketed bullet only H-4895.

Dummy rd. for 7.62 x 54r used to set bullet seating depth off the leads as well as check for proper amount of filler between the bullets base and powder column.

 

[Laphroaig]

I took LoadMasters advice and contacted Hodgdon last night via email. I was surprised that I got a quick response from them this AM:

"The two powders have a different chemical make up to them, the Hodgdon powder ignites easier than the IMR and builds pressures differently."


Mike Van Dyke
Customer Service Representative
Hodgdon Powder Company
6430 Vista Drive
Shawnee, Ks. 66218

913-362-9455 Ext. 109

 

[magnatecman]

I did this for my daughters first year hunting mule deer. I used 39 gr. under a 120gr. sierra pro hunter in her 7mm08. She is only 12 years old and I didn't want her to develop a flinch from recoil so I wanted a light load for her to start with. This was sub moa and she had no issues shooting this load. It was right around 2600 fps so I wanted to keep her shots on game pretty close. She was successful and dropped her buck at 201 yards.

 

[magnatecman]