Reducing Loads For Military Brass (New Reloader)

[Speedgoat]

New to reloading but have read my Speer manual several times since getting it for Christmas (waiting to find powder, primers, etc.) and feel rather knowledgable but there's one thing that's sumping me.

When reloading military brass, most forum reading I've done recomends reducing the max loading by 10%, yet not loading below the starting charge. Here's my figuring for the first load I plan to work up

30-06 LC Match Brass (67), Nosler E Tip 150gr, IMR 4895

Here's what I found from the Hogdon load center website (haven't gotten a Nosler book yet)

Start Charge 47.0 Max Charge 50.8

Now 50.8 - 10% = 45.7, 1.3 gr lower than the listed starting charge. After consulting my Speer manual, no mention was made of military brass, not surprising since they quit making it back in the mid 70's for the '06. For .308 it recomends 'at least 3%' load reduction. Bringing what I'll refer to as my Do Not Exceed charge to 49.2 gr, giving me 2.2 gr to play with finding the sweet spot of accuracy my praticular rifle likes. Am I on the right track? I'm doing this load for a '52 Win Model 70 Featherweight, stock barrel should be 1:10.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The 10% rule is usually used when only the Max charge is supplied by a published source. it give you a safe way of finding the starting charge weight. If a published source includes a starting charge as well as a Max charge us the data provided.

There is no need to further reduce a published starting load and the 3% you're asking about is a 3% reduction of the Max charge, not the starting charge weight. If you use the starting charge weight no further reduction is needed for military brass. Note: not all military brass has less capacity than commercial brass. You should check for yourself and not assume anything.

 

[jim243]

When reloading military brass, most forum reading I've done recomends reducing the max loading by 10%

That part I do not understand. Brass is brass, it being 50 years old I would question even using it (yes brass does get brittle). Military brass is a pain in the back side since the primers were crimped and the heads (bullets) set in with a sealer (tar or something like that). And both the primer pocket needs to be swedged and the inside of the case neck needs to be cleaned.

Unless the brass has corroded or been damaged (machine gun use) it should be the same as any other once fired brass. NOW, some military brass has thicker walls and less internal space in them and need a lighter charge of powder to reach the same pressure levels of commercial brass, in that case yes reduce your charge to the starting load data and work your way up in small steps.

No matter what brass you use, you need to START at the starting load data and go up in small incriments while checking for high pressure signs on your cases.

This is just safe reloading proceedure and should be followed no matter what type of brass you use.

Jim

 

[Speedgoat]

ArchAngelCD,
Okay I see now, I don't think I worded it properly above, the part about not going below the starting charge is what threw up the red flag for me, and lead me to do a lot of reading and was unable to find a good answer.

So for data out of a reputable reloading book, or reputable website such as the Hogdon site I used, where they give starting and max loads, my DNE charge should be 3% under their listed Max charge if I'm reading correct?

As far as measuring the brass, is it the physical weight of the brass, or should I use the water volume weight method I've read about?

 

[Speedgoat]

Jim243,
I got the Match brass because it does not have crimped primer pockets. The man I bought it from had pulled the bullets and powder to use in other calibers he had, therefore no MG firing. Doesn't seem cost efficent or time efficent to me, but it's unfired brass, I plan still go ahead and size, deprime check OAL and trim as nessecary and tumble them, as I always kinda thought was the norm even when using commercial brass. I've heard more than not that the Lake City 'Match' brass was good stuff, and I was able to find some and got a fairly good deal.

My whole issue was always where the Max load was when adjusted for military brass. I have no intentions on starting out at the max load, I like my rifles too much, and am pretty partail to the way my face looks as is. I've also heard that your very likely to find your praticular rifle's sweet spot of a powder charge for accuracy before you will reach the Max charge. The elk, antelope, paper target's not going to complain if it takes 1 second, or 1.25 seconds to get there, but I'd like to have the best grouping rounds. That's the whole reason I decided to get into reloading.

 

[jim243]

and am pretty partail to the way my face looks as is

Good thinking (LOL). LC is good brass and should do you well. It sounds like that is un-fired brass and you should have NO problems with it. The only condition I would put on it is how it was stored, if it was around ammonia or clorine products, the fumes may have affected the metal composition of the cases. Generally that is not the case and the cases should be fine.

As a target shooter more so than a hunter, I often find that the sweet spot for my rifles (223, 243, 270, 35 Remington) are .5 grains under max. Why I do not know but it just works out that way.

Good luck and safe shooting.
Jim

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So for data out of a reputable reloading book, or reputable website such as the Hogdon site I used, where they give starting and max loads, my DNE charge should be 3% under their listed Max charge if I'm reading correct?

Correct but only if your brass has less capacity than commercial brass. If not make no adjustments to the Hodgdon online data.

As far as measuring the brass, is it the physical weight of the brass, or should I use the water volume weight method I've read about?

The weight means nothing in this case, internal volume is what's important. BUT, there is an easier way to check without using water. I fill a commercial case with a ball powder and then dump that powder into the military case. If it fits it's the same as the commercial case. If it overflows, lower internal volume. It's not really scientific but it's fast, easy and you get the correct answer.

 

[BaltimoreBoy]

Perhaps the 'military' brass is related to the .308/7.62 Nato issue.

Actual 7.62 Nato brass is somewhat thicker than .308. This means that the internal volume is smaller which can lead to higher pressures.

Check this link for a detailed discussion of the whys and wherefores of this: http://www.303british.com/id36.html

Perhaps this makes people cautious about military brass, and perhaps some other military cartridges also have thick brass.

 

[witchhunter]

Speedgoat, you are on the right track. You can safely start at the low end. I would never go below that. Work up in stages until your groups tighten up or you see pressure signs. The 30/06 is a very forgiving cartridge. In my opinion the bullet selection and seating depth is as important as powder charge. You may find that some guns like a certain bullet, or a certain powder, or a certain velocity or a certain combination only. Keep yer bore clean and good luck.

 

[rg1]

Nosler's Reloading Manual #7 says to always start with start charges when using E-tip bullets "due to internal construction differences" of the bullets themselves. Nosler 7th says start at 47 and max 51 grains of IMR 4895. They tested the 150 grain E-tip at an overall length at 3.300" with a Nosler case and WLR primer. LC brass in 30-06 is near to commercial cases in weight. No problems with IMR 4895 starting at 45 grain levels in 30-06 150 gr. loads for M1 Garands and working up to the 48 grains. Have no experience with E-tips though.

 

[Hacker15E]

Perhaps the 'military' brass is related to the .308/7.62 Nato issue.

Actual 7.62 Nato brass is somewhat thicker than .308. This means that the internal volume is smaller which can lead to higher pressures.

Check this link for a detailed discussion of the whys and wherefores of this: http://www.303british.com/id36.html

Perhaps this makes people cautious about military brass, and perhaps some other military cartridges also have thick brass.

IMO, this is the reason for the widespread belief in downloading military brass.

True for 7.62, but not a rule for other calibers.

 

[homatok]

Keep in mind that even different non-military manufactured brass can differ in internal capacity. If you take a sized, trimmed military case and compare it to a sized, trimmed to the same length commercial case by weight, the heavier case will have less internal capacity. In this scenario, the only difference could be some small difference in the volume of the extraction groove and that would be inconsequential. That said, the water method will work but I tend to do the "fill the case with ball powder and compare" trick.

 

[USSR]

As several of the guys have said, this applies to 7.62x51/.308, but not the .30-06. There are several commercial .30-06 cases that are heavier than Lake City Match. Lake City M72 and Lapua brass are essentially the same weight. I use identical loads in both and get identical velocity readings.

Don

 

[JRH6856]

Jim243,
I got the Match brass because it does not have crimped primer pockets. The man I bought it from had pulled the bullets and powder to use in other calibers he had, therefore no MG firing. Doesn't seem cost efficent or time efficent to me, but it's unfired brass, I plan still go ahead and size, deprime check OAL and trim as nessecary and tumble them, as I always kinda thought was the norm even when using commercial brass. I've heard more than not that the Lake City 'Match' brass was good stuff, and I was able to find some and got a fairly good deal.

WHOA!. If it is UNFIRED brass, it is not safe to deprime live primers.!!!

 

[USSR]

WHOA!. If it is UNFIRED brass, it is not safe to deprime live primers.!!!

Ridiculous! It is done safely all the time.

Don

 

[JRH6856]

It is also often done dangerously by new reloaders, though usually not more than once.

 

[USSR]

It is also often done dangerously by new reloaders, though usually not more than once.

Evidence please. Okay, all you one-eyed new reloaders who are now called "Lefty", please raise your righ, er, left hand.

Don

 

[JRH6856]

Personal experience. I saw a friend injure an eye from getting over zealous trying to deprime crimped primers by slamming them out on the press. The impact was enough to set it off.

In this case, my bad. I picked up on the military brass in the OP and missed the uncrimped primers. Disregard.

 

[Speedgoat]

Had no problems, probably even a little more gingerly knowing the primers were live, while de-priming and resizing. I always thought handloading was about taking your time, and not getting as you say over zealous. 100 rds done and no explosions in my reloading room!

As for the difference in volume, ball powder method, I found that my LC Match cases averaged about .5gr less powder capacity than commercial Federals and a few R-P I had laying around.

 

[oldpapps]

OK, this threat started as a valid question/concern. After a bit took a odd turn and then went off the deep end.

To the original post:
Your question is well founded. The simple and in my view correct answer is who cares? Find a known safe starting point and work from there. You ease up to high pressures and back off(quick).

A book list your selected powder and bullet configuration with only a 'MAX' loading, back off 10% unless that powder has a history of not liking any reduced charges. If so, change to another (maybe better) powder.

You are/were looking at 150 grain Nosers and IMR4895. That's a good selection to me. Military brass can be thicker/heavyer/harder. But your are using good old US GI Lake City stuff.

With what you have selected, go with the 'Starting Load'. Get your process down, consistency is the way to accuracy.
Only change one variable at a time. The simplest one is volume of powder. Look at those primers, feel how snug the bolt turns with the fired case. Look for smoking down the case body.

I normally look for both my upper and lower loading for a set of components. This is more important when working with an auto loader. Then, with my limits set, I can look for the best mix and have no undue concerns with excessive pressures (or detonations - another bucket of fish). I have only had one rifle that shot its best at or near its top/hottest loading. One out of more than a hundred. Most do best in the middle someplace.

Each weapon is a mystery to be solved, one shot at a time. Statistically, 15 test shots or more is needed for a truly valid results. Then you will want to verify at several distances. Oh, I'm getting away from your initial concern. But, this is what makes loading so intriguing.

My loadings aren't going t help you. I do like to use 150 grain bullets. But, my loads are most of the time feeding M1 Garands and I baby them. And my selected powder is 748. Fortunately, I have found a loading that does well in my Garands and my 03A3.

 

[Slamfire]

I weight sorted a bunch of mostly WWII era 30-06 brass. The brass I used for these loads weighed between 190 and 195 grains empty and unprimed.

As you can see the velocity varied based on the barrel it was used. This load is really equivalent to ball ammunition and is entirely appropriate for a Garand. I would not add more powder for a Garand, but you can bump it up in bolt rifles.

Still, depending on the rifle, 2700 fps is fine with a 150.

SAKO 24" Barrel

150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 190 ≤ WWII ≤ 195 OAL 3.290"
17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F

Ave Vel = 2703
Std Dev = 26.41
ES = 80.66
High = 2739
Low = 2659
N = 10
Accurate about 2" High
mild load, backed out primers






M1 Garand 5 82X XXX


150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 190 ≤ WWII ≤ 195 OAL 3.290"
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F

Ave Vel = 2619
Std Dev = 28
ES = 101
Low = 2559
High = 2660
N = 16


M98 26" 1-10 Wilson Barrel


150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 190 ≤ WWII ≤ 195
OAL 3.290"
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F

Ave Vel = 2722
Std Dev = 26
ES = 76
Low = 2673
High = 2749
N = 10

Group Size: All in ten ring, very mild load, primers backed out.