Wildly inconsistent load data

[Alec]

Page 973 of Speer #14 has the following data:

.45 TMJ RN
230 grain
COAL 1.260"

H. Universal: Start charge: 5.5 (730 fps), max charge: 6.3 (841 fps)
231: Start charge 5.6 (789 fps), max charge: 6.2 (858 fps)

But Hogdon's website lists:

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP
COAL 1.200"

Universal: Start charge: 5.1 (716 fps), max charge: 5.6 (844 fps)
HP-38: Start charge: 4.3 (699 fps), max charge: 5.3 (834 fps)

I always like to cross-check loading data. Winchester's loading center website redirects to Hogdon's. There's no overlap between Speer's start and Hogdon's max for 231/HP-38, and there is only .1 gr difference between the max and minimum for Universal. I'm scratching my head.

Note that COAL: 0.060" is the difference between a flat point (Remington factory round) and a round nose, so that should account for the 0.060" difference rather than how deeply the bullet is in the case.

Can someone please cross-check these powders against one of their manuals?

 

[LiveLife]

While no OAL is mentioned, 1999 Winchester load data listed 4.9 to 5.7 gr of W231 as start/max charges for 230 gr FMJ - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=158678&stc=1&d=1328775435

Lyman #49 lists 5.2 to 5.8 gr as start/max charges for 230 gr TMJ.


- Winchester load data - 230 gr FMJ W231 No OAL Start 4.9 gr 695 fps 14,900 PSI - Max 5.7 gr 830 fps 19,200 PSI

- Speer #14 load data - 230 gr TMJ W231 1.260" Start 5.6 gr (789 fps) - Max 6.2 gr (858 fps)

- Lyman #49 load data - 230 gr TMJ W231 1.275" Start 5.2 gr 758 fps 12,900 CUP - Max 5.8 gr 849 fps 16,200 CUP

 

[ewlyon]

Hornady's 9th gives a W231 charge range of 5.0-5.7 at 1.210" for a 230 fmj rn.
no data listed for universal

 

[ray15]

From what I've seen the Speer manual generally lists heavier charges than others. The latest Lee manual appears to reprint the Hogdgen data for Universal, but has slightly different HP38 numbers that also list 5.3gr. max.

 

[cfullgraf]

FThe latest Lee manual appears to reprint the Hogdgen data for Universal, but has slightly different HP38 numbers that also list 5.3gr. max.

Lee does not do any load testing. Their manual is a reprint of data from other sources so it is quite likely you will find data that is identical.

There are many reasons why data varies between sources. Testing fixture or gun, technicians doing test, bullet, case, powder lot, primer, atmosphere at testing, legal department, phases of the moon, and more.

 

[Walkalong]

The first is a round nose 230 Gr while the second is a flat point 230 Gr and is seated more deeply. I can't find the bullet length for the Speer 230 RN, but the Hornady 230 Gr TrFP is .620 (Just measured a couple). By memory it was deeper in the case.

My guess is the flat point is about .020 deeper in the case. All W-231 data (Such as Hodgdon's online data) seems to be milder these days and the Speer # 14 is just a copy of old data for most of it.

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[ray15]

There are many reasons why data varies between sources. Testing fixture or gun, technicians doing test, bullet, case, powder lot, primer, atmosphere at testing, legal department, phases of the moon, and more.

That being said, if you eliminate or normalize as many variables as possible, you find the Speer manual essentially always lists the highest max charge.

 

[ray15]

The first is a round nose 230 Gr while the second is a flat point 230 Gr and is seated more deeply. I can't find the bullet length for the Speer 230 RN, but the Hornady 230 Gr TrFP is .620 (Just measured a couple). By memory it was deeper in the case.

My guess is the flat point is about .020 deeper in the case.

I also doubt the OP's contention that there's no difference in seating depth. The Speer manual typically lists hot loads, but with a minimum charge equal or greater to others' max charge there's got to be a substantial component difference. It sure would be useful if load data included the seating depth.

 

[Walkalong]

I log the bullet length of every bullet in my log book, along with what powder, what powder weight, etc, etc, etc. I also log the OAL for every load, so I can always do the math and see if something is loaded deeper or not. I have never used a Speer 230 Gr RN, so I don't have that length.

 

[LiveLife]

I log the bullet length of every bullet in my log book ... I have never used a Speer 230 Gr RN, so I don't have that length.

Bullet from pulled factory Remington 230 gr round looks to be Speer TMJ and measures 0.642". You can put a question mark on the length until you get verification.

 

[Walkalong]

Probably close, but back when that data was done it was a standard open base 230 Gr FMJ, not their newer plated 230 gr RN. They may have used the same basic style though, and could have an identical length.

So .642 minus for the RN and .620 for the flat point.

Do the math on the probable seating depths using those bullet lengths and the OALs of 1.260 and 1.200.

 

[kcofohio]

I log the bullet length of every bullet in my log book, along with what powder, what powder weight, etc, etc, etc. I also log the OAL for every load, so I can always do the math and see if something is loaded deeper or not. I have never used a Speer 230 Gr RN, so I don't have that length.

I don't log ever bullet length for loads, but keep at least 1 sample bullet on hand.

Hallow based (HB) bullets throw a monkey wrench in there though.

 

[Walkalong]

Hallow based (HB) bullets throw a monkey wrench in there though.

You knew you took Calculus for a reason, you just didn't know it was for reloading later on.

 

[Zendude]

I find the the lower half of the powder range in the Hodgdon data is too light to even cycle the action in my semiauto pistols.