Reducing the Recoil of a 1911 in .45ACP

[roo_ster]

What can be done to reduce the subjective recoil of a 1911 in .45ACP?

In yet another gunshop (lots around here), I was remarking how my wife likes the 1911 manual of arms & shootability, but did not like .45ACP recoil...which was why we bought my wife a 1911 in 9mm. Mr. Gunshop Guy just about spewed his Coke over the counter in disgust and disbelief. He said that his gunsmith could reduce the recoil she felt in a 1911 chambered in .45ACP to be equal or less than the identical 1911 chambered in 9mm...and that the high-pressure nature of the 9mm made is less suitable to recoil/muzzle blast-sensitive shooters.

I expressed my doubts, especially since the recoil springs in 1911s chambered in 9mm are generally rated for fewer lbs than those in similar .45ACP chambered 1911s.

Gunshop Guy said that with the right springs and plastic-doohickeys his 'smith could make it a reality. He didn't seem worried about the buffers going south at the wrong time.

Call me conservative, but I am not sure I want plasticky doo-dads in the inner workings of a defensive pistol. Introducing more complexity and parts that wear out on a frequent basis seems like a Bad Idea.

So, is there any way to reduce the subjective recoil without:
1. Resorting to hunks of plastic getting mashed between metal bits
2. Increasing the 1911's weight some way
3. Drilling ports in the slide & bbl

I am thinking that no amount of fiddling with the 1911 innards is going to reapeal Newton's Third Law or its subjective application to my wife's hands & wrists (5' tall & less than 100lbs).

 

[1911Tuner]

Recoil

Mr. Gunshop Guy would be better off stickin' to things that he knows...like sellin' guns.

You can do a few things to reduce the felt recoil of a .45 caliber 1911 pistol, but not to the level of a 9mm without going to downloaded ammo and respringing the gun to run with that ammo.

 

[capbuster]

You might consider practicing with target loads using a bullet weight less than the standard 230 grain standard. For years I used a cast 230 grain bullet at standard velocity. John Shaw recommended using target loads to enhance your skills. I did so and starting using the 200 grain cast swc bullets in target loads. I was not looking for less recoil but I got it as a bonus.

 

[HSMITH]

With factory ammo you are pretty much stuck with recoil in a 45. You can run a little lighter spring, say a 14# spring in a Gov model and it will help some, but not a ton. You can go to a short radius firing pin stop (thanks Tuner!) and that helps a little more but again not a ton.

Handloading changes it quite a bit, I load 230's with Clays and the recoil feels dramatically softer, same with N310. It is drastically softer than factory 45 of similar performance, but it is still a good bit heavier than 9mm in a comparable gun.

Sprinco makes a recoil reducer, but it gives recoil a strange feel and doesn't help much in my opinion.

I guess the Readers Digest version of this post is your gunshop guy is not right, you can mitigage 45 recoil slightly with several different approaches but nothing will take it down to 9mm levels other than drastically reducing the velocity.

 

[RogersPrecision]

 

[Dean Taylor]

Chuck,

Very nice work. You show the principles that an elete pistolsmith can do to reduce felt recoil.

I have a Custom Open .45 ACP STI which has a Comp which does reduce felt recoil some. I have also used some lower power loads in the 150 PF range for steel which also helps. Needless to say my Custom Open STI pistol does not even come close to the work Chuck does does. I also find increased weight using a Tungsten guide rod is helpful but of course the weight does not increase quickness.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[1911Tuner]

Porting

Nice work! jfruser...There's a method for reducing recoil in your wife's pistol.
All it takes is a buncha money.

 

[Shootcraps]

Gunshop Guy is wrong. You can't reduce felt recoil that much. If you install an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop with a slight bevel, it will reduce it a bit and make it somwhat softer.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ammo

Went and did a little research on factory ammo...in case you don't reload and don't want to/can't afford to/can't justify the cost of a custom comp gun...
Hornady's factory 200-grain XTP hollowpoint is, from various reports, only loaded to about 800 fps. That would reduce the recoil impetus by about
10% below that of average factory hardball...or maybe a little more. Pretty expensive stuff, but not prohibitive unless she's in the habit of burnin' up 200-250 rounds a week.

Go with the small radius stop...keep the recoil spring in the 14-16 pound range, and add a tungsten full-length guide rod to get some weight out front.
'Course...if you can afford one of Chuck's excellent comped pistols, and that's your cuppa tea...go for it!

 

[Dean Taylor]

There are bushing Comps but I have never used one or shot a pistol with one. My comp is on a bull barrel and the others I have shot are on the barrels. Perhaps Chuck and some other experienced pistolsmiths can comment.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[1911Tuner]

Comp

I fired two comped guns in .38 Super way back when they started soupin' up the Super to unheard-of levels Can't remember offhand who did the work, but the recoil was nearly straight back with a very low, gentle muzzle flip...almost like a woman's tender hand nudging it. The other thing I remember was that the gun was LOUD. You could sho 'nuff put rounds on target double-quick with it though. If I understand the theory correctly, comps and ports provide the most difference in recoil in the high-pressure calibers...like .38 Super and 9X23...than they do .45 ACP.

Mighta been one of Tommy Abernathy's pistols... It was about the time he got deep into raceguns.

 

[roo_ster]

Newton: 1, Gunshop Guy: 0

Thanks for all the replys.

To sum up, it is pretty much what my experience, common sense, and my physics teachers taught me. I am not all-knowing, so I figured I'd put the question up for comment.

I suppose my wife will have to be content with her 1911 in 9mm, despite the hisses & catcalls from the peanut gallery.

 

[HSMITH]

Chuck, that is one of the best fitting jobs I have seen, that comp matches the slide EXACTLY, even in color and texture. Very few could pull that off, even among the elite. Your machine work is obviously very nice, but there is more to the finished product than that as you well know.

Damn fine work man, damn fine.

 

[RogersPrecision]

HSMITH,
Thanks buddy!
But look again.
Two different guns, two different comps.
The first is a true 5" carry comp.
The second is a true 4 1/4" carry comp.

 

[Dean Taylor]

I suggest you just ignore the hisses and catcalls. The ones doing it just lack current knowledge of a recent trend. Since the Power Factor for IPSC major was reduced there are a significant number of IPSC shooters using 9mm in Major. I have shot a few 9mm open 1911s and few Lmited 9mm 1911s and they are softer than my .45ACP. They are nice for what they are designed for - however I still prefer .38 Super. Another plus for 9mm is that comercial ammo is cheaper than .45ACP

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

.

 

[carebear]

Chuck (if I may call you Chuck),

Ditto on the fitting compliment, that was my first thought on seeing the pics.

Absolutely beautiful.

 

[Sheldon]

A softer shooting load like a lightly loaded 200 gr. SWC would go a long way toward making the 45 an easy shooter too. I load some with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye and it shoots great and recoils softly as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Agree with HSmith. That's purty work, Chuck.

jfruser...Let your wifemate practice with that 9 'til she gets to be a crack shot..and let her go embarass some of the boys. Seen it happen. PHA
sponsors several IDPA and plate matches a month, and we get a lot of ladies
who shoot their 9mm Springfields like a house afire.

 

[LeonCarr]

Points to ponder on reducing the recoil of a 1911 .45 without increasing weight:

Lighter loads (Federal Personal Defense 165 grain Hydra-Shok, Federal/Win/Rem 185 grain JSWC target loads, handloaded 185/200 grain bullets using a fast burning powder like Bullseye, Clays, Winchester Super Target, etc) will help considerably to increase control. Typically the lighter bullet weights have less felt recoil. Keep in mind that the lightest loads might need a lighter weight recoil spring.

Using a more aggressive grip on the gun, coupled with a good weaver/isosceles shooting position, will also aid in control.

90% of the women I have shot with or taught to shoot like the 1911 better than all the rest.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Jim Watson]

Ignore the catcalls, they are totally nekulturniy and the dealer is a peasant.
Plenty of ladies and big hairy men are shooting 9mm 1911s for the cheap ammo and light recoil. Myself included. In the second group.

As far as .45s go, you can tweak a gun with springs, buffers - rubber and spring - firing pin stop angle, tungsten guide rods, etc, but none or even a combination will make a BIG difference in recoil. They are of more use to the experienced shooter trying to squeeze out another hundredth of a second in his split times than they are to a beginner who needs major help in comfort.

An expansion chamber compensator's gas handling and weight will make a real difference but at considerable dollar cost and limitation on application if she got into competition. Not allowed in IDPA at all, shoots Open in IPSC vs 28 shot scope sighted .38s.
The bushing compensators are not much good except as they add recoiling mass. They have to be wide open to recoil back over the barrel, so they don't deflect much gas.

Ammo is the cure. Midrange target loads of a 185 gr SWC at 750 fps are as soft to shoot as a smallbore, maybe moreso. They are expensive to buy but easy to load, a 200 gr SWC at 700 fps is close to the old Winchester Supermatch, IF you handload. If you don't shoot 9mm and ignore the peasants. Of which I don't see many anyhow.