Refresh my memory - pros/cons of handgun mounted tactical lights

[Fun2Shoot]

I'm thinking of ditching my Sig 9mm with a picatinny rail and tactical rail light on it as my main HD gun.

I've got the hots for a 45acp 1911 again and I just think that a 1911 Govt type frame with that rail mount wrecks the time honored appearance of the 1911.

Yeah yeah, it is a defense tool I tell myself. Form must follow function, a rail adds to function I tell myself, BUT I may just use my hand-held Streamlight tac light and the conventional framed 1911 in combination as my main HD gun.

What do you think you would do?

 

[GunNut]

IMHO, you're much better served by learning to use a flash light with your gun instead of a weapon mounted light.

I've got a light for my Glock and never put it on the gun, but i always have one of my surefire lights close by at night.

Steve

 

[kirkcdl]

Well,it does give the bad guy in the dark an aim point,so I guess from his point of view it's a good thing.Doesn't work for me,though...

 

[Onmilo]

Pros, the light is always with the firearm and you aren't fumbling around with a separate flashlight.

Anybody who tells you that people will shoot at the light are only half right.
65,000 lumen's at 25 feet is disorienting enough that if they do attempt to fire on you they will, in all likelihood, completely miss you and the light.

Cons, all lights add muzzle weight and unless you practice with the light in place you will tend to shoot low.

Holster choices for weapons with lights are no where near broad in scope.
If you choose to carry the weapon holstered and the light separate and on a separate carrier you may as well just carry a 6P or 9P Surefire flashlight and skip the weapon mounted light concept altogether.

Safariland and Blade-Tech produce the best holsters for weapon mounted light combos.

A weapon mounted light is used to disorient a potential adversary and possibly avoid a shoot situation, they were never intended to replace the standard belt light for the purpose of illumination.

 

[Mortech]

Interesting , noone has said 'learn BOTH techniques' , each has its strong points and weaknesses . Have you ever tried clearing a structure holding a flashlight and gun in seperate hands ? I definitely can understand likely a weapon with a clean profile but they are tools ....

 

[RNB65]

If I'm in a nighttime hostile situation, I'm not interested in giving the bad guy a can't miss target to shoot at. It's like painting a big glowing target on your chest which says, "Shoot me."

 

[saspic]

Well, just to clarify, tactical lights have about 65 lumens, not 65,000. That would be pretty awesome.

I guess the acid test to decide this issue is to set a light in the dark pointing right at you. Even better, have a friend hold it. Stand across the room look at it and honestly ask yourself, "If that light was being brandished by a bad guy trying to kill me, would I really be able to zero in on him and make the shot? Or would I be disoriented and unable to draw a bead on him?" (Don't shoot your friend!;-P)

I carry a 200 lumen light (not weapon mounted) and have no fears whatsoever that it will "give my position away." These things are bright.

Also, remember, unless you're in law enforcement or you surprise a burglar, the bad guy will probably be initiating the contact and will already know where you are. The light will make your location a little harder to ascertain.

 

[Logan5]

Is it an either/or question really?

The "surefire" on my HD 870 is so old it says "Laser Products Corp." on it. In the best of all possible worlds, the scenario where it comes into play is one in which my monitored alarm system is blaring and calling the police, my wife has the PD on the cell phone, and the intruder knows the police are on the way and that I am armed, and still attempts to rush up the stairs in a dark house to get at me. I want to see the target so that I can hit it, and I want that to be as easy as possible, because everything else is out the window at that point. The bad guy is not being reasonable, and this is when the light comes into play, without any thought of "clearing" anything. You're not making yourself a target in this scenario, because you're identifying your target and then shooting, immediately. There is no fallback positon in this kind of situation, and you need to not die.

If at all possible, I'd keep the 226 with the light as a "house gun" and carry the 1911, but I'm on a budget as well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I've only been using rail mounted lights for about a year now but I'm totally sold on them in combination with a laser.

Matter of fact I'm about to order my forth Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light.

Used intelligently I don't see a down side to them.
Used intelligently to me means learn how to use the equipment properly and PRACTICE with it.

Since most people can't or won't get the practice they need with hand held flashlights, night sights, etc, I think the thing to have is a rail mounted flashlight, better yet a rail mounted flashlight/laser.
If you light up the BG you are already aimed in on him if you have the laser and light both set to turn on together.

 

[gr8cook]

I don't understand

I'm reading a lot of people saying that a weapon mounted light is a sure target for the bad guy.

So are you saying that flashlights should not be used or are you recommending using a flashlight in the weak hand with weak arm fully extended sideways from the body?

How would you use a light so that it wouldn't indicate where the BG should shoot?

It occurs to me that having the light on the weapon might be a good thing if BG is looking from some other angle the head on.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I think a weapon mounted light makes sense.

Cook

 

[M2 Carbine]

I think most of the people that think they can aim at one of these bright lights has never tried it.

Shortly after I got my first Streamlight laser/light I was shining it around in the living room during the day. I made the mistake of shining it into a mirror at my face. Immediately I knew that was a mistake and saw spots for a while.

A BG, in front of you, may launch bullets at you but he won't be aiming at that light. A second BG to the side might be better able to aim in the light's direction. I haven't tried it yet to see.

The thing is the light and laser should be used intelligently to minimize them making you a target. That's why they are equipped with momentary switches as well as Off-On switches.

One advantages of the laser/light is you could, if necessary, hold the gun out to your side and still be targeted on the BG.
You can pretty much hold the laser equipped gun anywhere and still accurately target the BG.

Last week I did most of my low light practice with my Crimson Trace laser equipped S&W J Frame and Streamlight equipped Kel Tec .223 pistol, shooting from the hip from about 12 yards to 25+ yards.
In about 120 rounds I missed a 3 1/2 inch target 2-3 times at 25 yards with the Kel Tec but never missed a 5 inch target, at 25 yards, with the Smith. Go figure.

Bottom line.
Whatever you use, a laser, light, night sights, flashlight, etc, you are fooling yourself about your ability to use them if you don't practice with them.

What do we say?
"I'll grab my HD gun if I hear a bump in the night."
When was the last time you practiced with your HD gun in the dark?

 

[Okiecruffler]

One thing no one has mentioned and the reason I won't use a mounted light is that you're also pointing the evil end of your firearm at whatever you're looking at. That's if it's a BG, your cat or your mother in law who's trying to get a drink of water from the dishwasher (sux getting old). I use a small hand held 9 LED that blinds pretty good when clicked on in the dark. The wife has a 9 gazillion lumen spotlight on her side of the bed that will burn your retinas right out the back of your head. Anyone who can draw a bead on that thing must be a blind ninja master.

 

[mes228]

Light

Many years ago I "think" I read an article about the FBI and the Border Patrol training with flashlights. They were taught light in the left hand extended from the body. Does anyone know if real people carrying a handgun into danger are schooled to attach it to their gun? Off hand I don't think I would attach a light to a firearm in a defensive situation. For general use and perhaps hunting at night I might try it. But defense, I don't think so. Just a thought.

 

[B36]

Magnets

That attract bullets.

On a handgun or even a rifle, they are abused by overuse.

I always have a light with me--Surefire or Streamlight, but in night shoots, really try to limit use. None are attached to my handguns.

The one on my 870 is mounted in a way that it can only be activated when the gun is in battery, and goes off when slide comes to the rear--cannot accidently be left on.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Nowadays, most U.S. military combatants are issued weapon mounted tactical lights (at least for their rifles).

I've been carrying them on my issue M4A1 and M9 since about 1995.

I would never willingly choose not to have one mounted.

If I were reduced to having only one accessory mounted to a combat/self-defense weapon, it would be a white tactical light. The second priority item would be a red-dot reflex sight. The third would be an IR laser.

The best way to convince yourself of tactical light utility, performance, and benefit is to conduct live-fire training in the dark. Practice various light hold techniques as well as reload and malfunction drills in the dark. If possible, follow this with force-on-force training using lights (even if the practice is completely dry with no ammo). Holler "bang-bang" if you have to, but crawl/walk/run thru every potential action and technique. It will make a believer out of you. Remember we are speaking about >60 lumen tactical lights, not your AA Mini-mag or old D-cell household flashlight. There is a huge difference in performance and no comparison.

There is also no comparison between one-handed firing (light in hand) vs. two handed weapons hold in terms of hit probability and accuracy. Try it and see for yourself...

Wandering about using the discredited old FBI "arms length" technique is a good way to miss your target. Even if you do use a separate (weak hand) light for target indexing, there are far better techniques (Harries, Chapman, etc.) offering better weapon support and hit potential.

Folks always seem to worry about some Wyatt Earp BG being able to snap-shoot an accurate shot at the the light. It's not going to happen unless you are walking around using the light to navigate with, which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

During the 1/2 to 2 seconds that you flash that light, you should be able to identify a hostile/non-hostile threat. If there IS a threat...you shoot. Right then. If there isn't a threat, you turn off the light and move to new cover.

If you really think that shining that light will give away your location...simply don't turn it on.

If you see something in your target zone that causes you to hesitate or decide not to shoot...exactly the same rules that apply during normal daylight apply in the dark. Finger off trigger, identify your target/backstop, decide to shoot or not.

Weapon lights serve Three primary functions:

1. ID Target
2. Blind Target
3. Allow you to put your sights or muzzle on the target in order to hit it.

Finding your way around in the dark is something a weapon tac-light can do but is not its primary function.

Fun2Shoot: I agree that light rails make 1911s look fugly. For the money it will cost, get the weapon you will be happiest with. My 1911s don't have rails. But my CZ does. Yes, you can just go with a handheld light. But the railed SIG is actually more practical for fighting in the dark, just as a railed 1911 would be. Deep down, you already know that. The only real question is whether or not you will practice with whichever light setup you go with.

 

[gr8cook]

On the other hand . . .

There are some folks who do this for a living. I wonder what they have to say about this?

I am told that these guys are good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbjzTi0yGWs

Cook

(Note: The "On the other hand . . ." is responding to my previous post and not the 25 year veteran who trains Delta and probably posted right before I did.)

 

[mrcpu]

Given that in gunbattles, a minimum of lead actually hits what people are aiming for, I suspect the safest place to hold the light is in the center of your forehead, given that lead will be flying just about everywhere else...

Purely on a statistical basis of course....

Maybe every home should come equipped with a flash-bang...

 

[Chindo18Z]

gr8cook: It's 30 years (this month) and I do not NOT train "Delta". However, I do train active duty Army Special Forces .

I'm just an old Silverback but some of my guys think I know at least a thing or two about weapons training.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Chindo18Z
During the 1/2 to 2 seconds that you flash that light, you should be able to identify a hostile/non-hostile threat. If there IS a threat...you shoot. Right then. If there isn't a threat, you turn off the light and move to new cover.

Good writeup.

This is is what many people don't understand about using lights or lasers.

In many cases the BG should only see a blinding light or a Red Dot a split second before he is hit with bullets.

If the light or laser is making you a target, you are probably not using them correctly.


I would estimate that most people that talk about using a flashlight and gun in the dark have never tried it. It's not easy.
(that's why I'm a big fan of gun mounted lights, both are easily aimed at the same time)

Given that 70-80 percent of defense shootings take place in low light or darkness and (I estimate) that most people have never fired their night setup in the dark, they are terribly unprepared for what probably (statistically) will happen.

 

[Chindo18Z]

M2 Carbine: "I would estimate that most people that talk about using a flashlight and gun in the dark have never tried it. It's not easy. ...they are terribly unprepared for what probably (statistically) will happen."

Exactly. Excellent Points.

Shining a flashlight seems intuitive; we've all used flashlights since childhood. Most of us know how to shoot a handgun. Thus, we think that it will be relatively simple to take care of business by whipping out the old SureFire and trusted blaster.

Most folks would be well served to put themselves into a pitch dark closet, bathroom, or wooded treeline and knock out enough pushups to get their heart rate and breathing up. Then attempt to draw, aim, fire, manipulate a safety or decocker, practice a malfunction drill, reload, and reholster. Then repeat with a combat light. That will solve some problems encountered in the first drill but present several more (which will become self-evident when practiced).

It's not enough to just stand in front of a mirror in a lit room, practice a few dry fires, flash your light a few times, and call it good. You need to stand in the dark and do the things you need to do...slowly at first...and by touch. When you get comfortable, add the tactical light to the mix.

You would never let your 16 year-old borrow your car on a Friday night if you knew they had never practiced any driving at night, but had only conducted driver's training during the day.

It's kinda the same with night firing and tactical lights. It's not actually rocket science, but it is not something you want to do for the first time under real conditions.

 

[crebralfix]

There are none. Used properly in conjunction with cover and movement, they are a boon.

Even if you are using a non-weapon mounted flashlight, you still need to be moving and using cover. The advantage is that the light and gun are pointed in the same direction. You also cannot lose the light without losing the weapon...one less thing to lose track of.

Even if you have a weapon light, you can still use a flashlight.

 

[M2 Carbine]

crebralfix
Even if you have a weapon light, you can still use a flashlight.

Just like, even if you have both hands full of long gun it doesn't hurt to have a pistol stuck in your back pocket.

 

[Mjoilner1911]

Handgun mounted lights are perfect for a "weapons free" scenerio, meaning you are in a situation that demands that you direct your weapon at the same place as the light. I carry an HK p2000 in .40 with xs 24-7 big dot nite sights in a Steve schafer (www.raftersgunleather.com) holster on my right hip. on my left side is a blackhawk belt mount with a streamlight m3x weapon light and a spare mag. that way i have the combat light with me and can use it seperately as a light, or, if things get hairy i can find some cover and mount the light to the weapon. but as been said here, learn both styles and train with both types of lights. the bottom line is this regardless of the light option you use. Momentarily light up your target, then move towards cover or safety. then re light the target. the bad guy can only get a fix on your light if it stays on, and you stay in the same place.