Registered Sear Guns?

[Jimmypop97]

I just got to thinking about this earlier.

I have heard of machine guns such as AR rifles being registered in such a manner so that the sear is the actual registered machine gun rather than the reciever. If that is the case, could the sear be swapped from one AR to another so that you could use different AR rifles in machine gun configuration?

Now with that question posed, when and if they have another "amnesty registration", how would you go about registering a sear in the said manner? Could you make a sear and register it that way?

Just to clarify, I don't own an AR, or anything that could be used to convert a firearm to full-auto. I am 100% in the legal, and would have it no other way. These are just questions that I thought up upon reading about "sear guns", and was curious how they were legally done.

 

[El Tejon]

"Seer guns"? Are those guns that can tell me the future (maybe provide stock tips)? (Or have you just been watching Charmed at the gym while on the treadmill like me--mmmm, Alyssa Milano).

Just having fun, Jimmy. I don't understand your question.

Is your question: what will happen if an amnesty happens again to any illegal sears, or is your question, how do auto sears work in the NFA/Title II world?

 

[SDC]

If it was run the way the '68 amnesty was, I don't know if you'd have TIME to manufacture and register one, but the way they were built before 1986 was that the sear ("seer" is someone who claims to be able to read the future), trigger group, "Lightning Link", RDIAS, etc was considered an MG in and of itself, complete with its own serial number. In that case, you could swap it back and forth between any receiver that would accept it with no problems.

 

[Jimmypop97]

"Posted by SDC

sear ("seer" is someone who claims to be able to read the future)"

Whoops:banghead: Sorry about the spelling there

So SDC, you mean that prior to 1986, manufacturers themselves had the entire FCG serialized and registered that way?

With these AK kits being sold, are the FCG shipped with them the original configuration full-auto FCG? If so, when and if they have another amnesty registration, could you take the FCG for one of these AK kits being sold and register it?

 

[TexasRifleman]

With these AK kits being sold, are the FCG shipped with them the original configuration full-auto FCG? If so, when and if they have another amnesty registration, could you take the FCG for one of these AK kits being sold and register it?

In a purely theoretical sense you would be able to register a full auto FCG from just about any weapon you could obtain the parts for. Now as to the AK you ask about it's my understanding that it takes more than the FCG to make the change on that specific weapon.

 

[Jimmypop97]

Thanks Texas Rifleman! Goes to show how much I know about the newer (if you can call an AK newer) firearms. WWII rifles are my primary interest.

I would love to own a full-auto one day, but I would never want to pay what they cost now. I would also never risk it to have one illegally either.

Could you legally build a full-auto FGC for an AR-15 if you do not own an AR-15? I know that it is illegal to possess everything to make a firearm automatic, so would not owning the firearm itself keep one in the legal?

Let me know if I am asking questions that makes anyone uncomfortable, as that is not my intent. I am also not asking for any illegal advice or anything. I just know that of all the boards I visit, this one is the most "in-the-know" about legalities.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Could you legally build a full-auto FGC for an AR-15 if you do not own an AR-15? I know that it is illegal to possess everything to make a firearm automatic, so would not owning the firearm itself keep one in the legal?

Oh that's another of those hypotheticals I guess... hypothetically it would be perfectly legal but you're really looking over the edge of a steep cliff there. If something ever happened and they could tie you in with an AR somehow you'd be toast.

Truth is the AR is relatively easy to convert compared to most so if there happened to be an opening of the registry there would be plenty of choices available, making stocking up on one now really pointless.

If it happens you'll be able to buy Lightning Links, DIAS, all that kinds of stuff pretty cheap once again.

Back when I got my RLL the NFA tax was more than I paid for the part (well 2 parts but one has the serial number on it).

 

[SDC]

So SDC, you mean that prior to 1986, manufacturers themselves had the entire FCG serialized and registered that way?

It depended on what exactly they wanted to manufacture; in the case of an AR, they could've just taken an unfinished AR lower, paid the tax on that lower, and completed the machining needed to make that lower a machinegun in and of itself. In that case, the entire lower is considered a machinegun. But, there's more than one way to get from A to B. Another way of doing the same thing WAS (repeat WAS) to manufacture an additional part that would let you temporarily convert a semiauto lower into a full auto, as long that additional part was installed. One way of doing that was to use a "Lightning Link", two stamped parts that fit together that form sort of a "combination auto sear". Another way was to build what's known as a "drop in auto sear" (DIAS), that replaces the auto sear that's normally found in M16 lowers. In these cases, those other parts (the Lightning Link and the DIAS) were THEMSELVES considered to be the "machinegun", and they could be swapped back and forth between host firearms. Similar gimmicks can be (or were) worked out for various other firearm designs as well, but in all of these cases, since it was that extra part that accomplished the conversion, it was that extra part that had to be registered and serial-numbered as the "machinegun".

 

[Jimmypop97]

Thanks for your help guys. I have done a little reading on the lightning links and the DIASs. I do believe the DIAS is what I have read about before.

So the conclusion that I have arrived at is that when and if an Amnesty Registration comes around, I could pay the tax on some un-finished recievers and complete them in full-auto form (or would I have to be a special manufactuer)?

Option two would be that when the amnesty registration comes around, have some DIAS machined, and pay the tax on them, or would that be illegal too (as in making them even while the registration is going on)?

If someone would, hypothetically, if a registration happens in the future, how could one go about staying in the green, but still achieving a firearm with FA capablities?

I just ask, becuase I would like to be in-the-know if a registration were to happen (I know it may be a long time, if ever), that way I could come out satisfied and completely in-the-legal

 

[nalioth]

What hasn't been fully explained yet, is that some guns require a specially configured receiver to run in selective fire mode. For these, you can have all the 'auto sears' you want, but if the receiver isn't configured properly, you'll still have bupkus.

On other guns, the receiver is the same for the semiauto only version and the selective fire variant. These are the guns the auto sear works in.

 

[Crunker1337]

I know that if you want to use the sear in more than one caliber you have to notify the BATFE.
That's why when HK sears are sold, they say what calibers it's registered in.

 

[Prince Yamato]

In a purely theoretical sense you would be able to register a full auto FCG from just about any weapon you could obtain the parts for. Now as to the AK you ask about it's my understanding that it takes more than the FCG to make the change on that specific weapon.

Actually, you'd just need a third hole in the receiver and a middle indentation for the selector. At any rate, there's enough FA FCGs for AKs floating around that at the time of the amnesty, the ATF would be going, "I wasn't aware that Century Arms was selling so many illegal machineguns!"

 

[Jimmypop97]

Quote:
In a purely theoretical sense you would be able to register a full auto FCG from just about any weapon you could obtain the parts for. Now as to the AK you ask about it's my understanding that it takes more than the FCG to make the change on that specific weapon.

Actually, you'd just need a third hole in the receiver and a middle indentation for the selector. At any rate, there's enough FA FCGs for AKs floating around that at the time of the amnesty, the ATF would be going, "I wasn't aware that Century Arms was selling so many illegal machineguns!"

So, in theory, when and if the time for amnesty comes, AK FCGs can be registered as the FA weapon themselves?

Also, on a side note, when people build these kits, are they supposed to be throwing away part of the FCG that came with the kit?

 

[nalioth]

So, in theory, when and if the time for amnesty comes, AK FCGs can be registered as the FA weapon themselves?

Also, on a side note, when people build these kits, are they supposed to be throwing away part of the FCG that came with the kit?

On an AK, the receiver is the controlled part. You can have all the selective fire trigger parts you want to with an AK, but unless you have the actual receiver set up, they won't work (and I recommend we don't go any further with whys or hows, gentlemen).

Unless you have selective fire AK receivers in your possession, the FA trigger parts ain't gonna do you any good.

Read my preceding post.

 

[ceetee]

As I understad it, possession of any full-auto AR parts, along with an AR lower receiver is considered to be the same as possession of a fully-automatic machine gun. As I understand it also, some AR lower receivers are made so that the DIAS won't fit in.

How would it be considered if you were in possession of the FA parts, and one of the AR lowers where the parts won't fit in? Would that also be considered constructive possession? Would it be a non-issue? Or would it be just so open to interpretation that it wouldn't be a good idea in any event?

 

[CleverNickname]

ceetee, yes the BATFE does consider an AR15 with M16 fire control parts to be a machine gun. All the auto sear does (whether a DIAS or the real factory autosear in an M16) is hold back the hammer in full-auto until the bolt is closed, then releases it. An AR15 without an auto sear but an M16 FCG still has the possibility of firing in full-auto if switched to full. The hammer won't be held back, because that's controlled by the M16 selector which is holding down the tail of the M16 disconnector, disengaging it. It's quite likely that the gun will fire out of battery in this case, but it may get a second or third shot off in full auto.