Reloading black powder

[1861]

Many of you know me from my 1851 Navy & beginner lengthy thread.
Soon I'll start reloading, I'm in a process of getting everything I need, next month I expect to be fully equipped. I learned a lot about it by watching youtube videos and reading about it here and elsewhere around the web. But I still have some questions, at this moment just one important specific question. I asked staff members where to post this, in Blackpowder or in Reloading section, and they said that it could be better to post here. So bear with me please.

I have:
- Pietta 1851 Navy .36 with steel frame
- Kirst Konverter conversion cylinder to .38
- .38 Special brass cases (the only one suitable for my cylinder which I could obtain) - made by Magtech
- .38 hollow base wadcutters, .357 diameter, 148 gr, with grooves, lubed, soft lead
- FFFg black powder (POW-EX by WANO)
- Winchester primers - small pistol for standard pistol loads


The cylinder chamber is 36 mm long. The case is 28 mm long. If I seat a wadcutter fully (flush with mouth of the cartridge), I still have 8 mm of length between the tip of the wadcutter/case and the chamber's mouth. That's a lot of length (empty space) still left in a chamber. That means that wadcutter could protrude out of the case without any impact on the cylinder's rotation.
I'm mentioning this because I heard that when wadcutter is completely inside the case - not much room is left for the powder - and that could result in weak shot or even in possibility that such amount of black powder may not have enough energy to push the bullet down the barrel.
But since I have plenty of room still left in cylinder's chamber, I could put MORE black powder and let a wadcutter stick outside the case - but the big question is: HOW MUCH?

Another (small) question is about the lube. I asked the web-shop to tell me what type of lube is on my wadcutters and the reply was: "It is standard lube. It will fit for Smokeless and Blackpowder." Not much info. Should I put something between black powder and wadcutter, maybe fill the bottom of the hollow base with lube, or use lube cookie or lubed wad? Or is a factory lube already on them enough?

THANK YOU!

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I recently reloaded 45/70 cases with Black MZ powder. I simply filled the case to the top and seated a 405 grain bullet to the crimp ring with no problem. The nice thing about black powder is it's hard to over charge a revolver. I would try this on your .38 case and see if the bullet will seat where you want it. You can also use a round ball as well in place of the wadcutters.

 

[J-Bar]

Take a new unprimed, not resized brass case and gently place a bullet into it, just deep enough to prevent the bullet from falling out. Insert this test piece into the chamber of your cylinder and push it in until case rim is seated in firing position.

If the conversion cylinder has reduced diameter throats at the front of the chamber (and they probably do), the bullet may encounter resistance and be pushed down into the brass case. If you can get the rim seated completely against mild resistance, then you can withdraw the test piece and measure how much bullet protrudes out of the brass. That will be your maximum overall cartridge length for that combination of bullet and brass. During actual reloading, give yourself a little room for error and seat the bullet a few thousandths deeper than the maximum length.

If the bullet does not encounter resistance in the chamber throat while seating the test piece, the bullet may protrude from the front of the chamber. You obviously do not want that to happen, so measure how much bullet sticks out, and seat the bullet so it is slightly below the face of the cylinder.

You should crimp the bullets, preferably crimping the mouth of the brass case into one of the lubrication grooves. This prevents the bullet from sliding around in the brass during recoil.

Once you have established the seating depth for your bullet, fill the case with powder so that the powder touches the bottom of the bullet; do not allow any air gaps between powder and bullet inside the case. Compressing the powder a little (1/8 inch or so) is just fine, but you don't need to mash the powder down hard.

You will find out if the lube is compatible with black powder by shooting some of the bullets. If the fouling in the barrel is hard to clean out, then you need a different lube.

 

[1861]

Thank you Jackrabbit1957.

I simply filled the case to the top and seated a 405 grain bullet

To the TOP!? How did you seat a bullet if the case was filled to the top, did you manage to compress powder so much that you have succeded in creating enough room for the bullet? Filling the case to the top seems like awfully lot of powder, isn't that too much? Or we have some total misunerstanding here?

You can also use a round ball as well in place of the wadcutters.

Really, I can use a round ball? I had no idea. Does anyone shoot round balls from brass cases? I need to know more about this. For me, brass (.38) is hard to get and very expensive. But - I can get almost unlimited quantities of used brass cases which police shot and left at the range. They are very short, only 18 mm long, but their caliber is the right one for me, 9mm, same as my new .38 Special brass. I know that 18 mm is very short (28 mm is the length of .38 Special, 36 mm is the length of the cylinder's chamber) - but MAYBE I could fire a round ball from from the short 18 mm case? What you think, is that possible? If yes, than I would never ever had to worry about cases any more, I can collect hundreds at the range, they are only fired once and left there forever. (There are no other types of cases there to be found.) But I'm afraid 18 mm case will be too short.

 

[1861]

J-Bar, my .38 Special are indeed new and shiny unprimed cases.
I never heard about cylinders having a reduced diameter throats at the front of the chamber. I'll have to check it, I didn't notice that, maybe the difference between diameters on one side and on the other side is so small that I can't see it, but I'll have to check it the way you explained. Thank you.
About crimping, I've seen everywhere that it's optional, common used frase is "if you want" [to crimp]. I don't really want (one more thing to do), unless I realize that I'll have to, so let's just wait and see what happens when shooting them without crimping, agree?

 

[J-Bar]

Crimping will provide more complete and consistent powder burning. Experiment and see what works best for you.

What reloading press or tool are you using?

 

[1861]

I will order this: https://leeprecision.com/reloader-press.html

 

[arcticap]

Really, I can use a round ball? I had no idea. Does anyone shoot round balls from brass cases? I need to know more about this. For me, brass (.38) is hard to get and very expensive. But - I can get almost unlimited quantities of used brass cases which police shot and left at the range. They are very short, only 18 mm long, but their caliber is the right one for me, 9mm, same as my new .38 Special brass. I know that 18 mm is very short (28 mm is the length of .38 Special, 36 mm is the length of the cylinder's chamber) - but MAYBE I could fire a round ball from from the short 18 mm case? What you think, is that possible? If yes, than I would never ever had to worry about cases any more, I can collect hundreds at the range, they are only fired once and left there forever. (There are no other types of cases there to be found.) But I'm afraid 18 mm case will be too short.

I don't reload but here's one thread about loading round balls into .45 cases and some of the difficulties encountered.
I know many do it and there's more threads about it, but this is the only one that came up in the results at this time.

What I found interesting was how Pulp sized his oversized .457 round balls by pushing them into and then back out of the chamber after the 1st one become stuck.
And case mouths sometimes need to be belled.
Photo in Post #3:--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ss-and-some-45colt-brass.643974/#post-7965869

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I have loaded round ball in .38 S&W cases. Also stuffed the case to the top with black powder. The pistol handled it just fine. The powder will compress a remarkable amount, especially black mz. Sounds like the cases you are finding at the range may be either 380 or 9mm Kurz or possibly .38 S&W. The difference is the .38 S&W cases are rimmed, the 380 case looks like a short 9mm case. If they're rimmed you can use them in your .38 cylinder. Just be sure they are headstamped as .38 S&W.

 

[1861]

Thanks all for your input.
Let's forget about the mentioned small brass cases (used by local police for practice) - because I have just tried to insert them into conversion cylinder and I CAN'T! They are too wide, I can't push them inside even if I press hard with a thumb. I'm very surprised because visually they seem to have exactly the same diameter as .38 Special. When I put together both cases mouth-to-mouth and I hold them like that together between two fingers, with my fingertips touching the rims of the mouth of the both cases at the same time - I can barely feel any difference in their width; only after I gently rubbed them between my fingers for longer time, I felt that a shorter case (from police) is just a tiny little bit wider than .38 Special, almost impossible to feel the difference. But when I insert the .38 Special into conversion cylinder it goes down easily; when I tried to insert the short case, I managed to push it inside only for 4 millimeters, with 12-13 mm still to go, but I couldn't push it any deeper. So now I definitely now that short cases (which I have been picking at the range after the police) are about 0.1 mm wider than .38 Special and I can't use em at all.
Which is irrelevant anyway - because after putting any type of projectile in them - there probably wouldn't be enough room for a sufficient quantity of black powder to push the projectile. (I don't intend to mess around with smokeless!) If I put a round ball in that short case - which I have successfully did right now, pushing 3/4 of a round ball in empty (short) brass case easily with rubber mallet - beneath the round ball there is enough space left for just a very small amount of black powder, I estimate 7 to 10 grains could fit.
So no matter how many short brass cases I can pick up for free, they are 100% useless to me.

 

[1861]

If the conversion cylinder has reduced diameter throats at the front of the chamber (and they probably do), the bullet may encounter resistance and be pushed down into the brass case.

YES and NO.
You were absolutely right about "reduced diameter throats at the front of the chamber" - I had no idea about that until tonight, the throats at the front are indeed less wide, because I can't put a .38 Special case through that side.
BUT - the wadcutter freely falls through the whole chamber, NOT encountering ANY resistence at all, so it seems that even if throats at the front of the chamber are narrower, that would be irrelevant to me, irrelevant for my wadcuters and .38 Special brass.

Also, while putting the same brass case through all 6 chambers, I realized that .38 Special case easily enters (drops freely) into 3 of the 6 chambers, while I have to push it a bit with my thumb to fully enter the other 3 chambers. That means that the chambers are not 100% identical regarding their width. But this should not be taken as a criticism of Kirst, because I have nothing but respect for Kirst.

 

[LRDGCO]

J-Bar gave you great advice above. I will only add that the smokeless powder lube on your bullets will be too hard for optimality with black powder loads. That means you will get hard fouling relatively quickly and accuracy will fall off. You can melt the smokeless lube off in hot water (use a pan you don’t intend to use for food subsequently) and replace with BP lube, either purchased or made (bees wax-Crisco-vegetable oil).

Any 38 Special brass will work in your conversion cylinder. It may require full length resizing.

Enjoy!

 

[J-Bar]

YES and NO.
You were absolutely right about "reduced diameter throats at the front of the chamber" - I had no idea about that until tonight, the throats at the front are indeed less wide, because I can't put a .38 Special case through that side.
BUT - the wadcutter freely falls through the whole chamber, NOT encountering ANY resistence at all, so it seems that even if throats at the front of the chamber are narrower, that would be irrelevant to me, for my wadcuters and my .38 Special brass.

Also, while putting the same brass case through all 6 chambers, I realized that case easily drops in - in 3 of the 6 chambers, while I have to push it a bit with my thumb to fully enter the other 3 chambers. That means that the chambers are not 100% identical in regard of their width. But this should not be taken as a criticism of Kirst, because I have nothing but respect for Kirst.

The diameter of the brass case will be reduced when you reload it; usually the decapping die will also resize the case and make it just a bit smaller diameter. So your finished cartridges should fall into the chambers easily.

In my opinion it is better to have open throats rather than restricted throats. If the throats are too small, the bullet may not completely fill the barrel and accuracy suffers. Ruger revolvers often have chamber throats that are too narrow. Gunsmiths make money opening up narrow throats.

Your main concern at this point is to seat the bullet into the case securely without leaving space between the powder and bullet and not making the finished cartridge too long. Within those limits you can do lots of experimenting.

 

[1861]

not making the finished cartridge too long

Ah - but WHAT is "too long"? My wadcutter can be flush with mouth of the case, or it can protrude 1 mm or protrude 2mm or 3 mm or 4...

smokeless powder lube on your bullets

How do you know that it's the smokeless powder lube on my bullets? It could be, but the seller (French web-shop) said only: "It is standard lube. It will fit for Smokeless and Blackpowder." They sell mostly blackpowder-related items.

 

[Navy Six 2]

If you still intend to use the hollow-base wadcutters, I learned a little trick to up the powder charge when I was using 38LC brass. Originally I could only fit a little over 14 grs, of 3F with the long hollow base bullet I was using and that sounded a little anemic. That hollow base will hold about 2 grs of powder. I added that extra 2 grs to the case which now totaled a bit over 16grs. I just started the bullet in the case(without completely seating it), then turned the whole case up-side down which allowed the extra powder to fill the hollow base of the bullet. I used a hand held portable press to finish seating the bullet while the whole thing was up-side down. These hand held presses are inexpensive and in a pinch, I have actually use a C-clamp to seat the bullet in this manner. You then finish off with whatever crimp you're going to use in a separate step. As some part of the bullet extended past the mouth of the case, I dipped that in melted blackpowder lube(too many recipes to list here) and the finished rounds were very accurate, at least to about 25 yds or so. Seems like a bit of trouble but the difference between the 14 gr and 16.5 gr charge was noticible with the 16.5 gr round sounding more like a real round.
I didn't come up with that procedure but I can't give credit to the gentleman who told me as I don't know his name.

 

[LRDGCO]

Ah - but WHAT is "too long"? My wadcutter can be flush with mouth of the case, or it can protrude 1 mm or protrude 2mm or 3 mm or 4...


How do you know that it's the smokeless powder lube on my bullets? It could be, but the seller (French web-shop) said only: "It is standard lube. It will fit for Smokeless and Blackpowder."

Follow J-Bar’s excellent advice on how to find correct seating depth for your bullets. His instructions are detailed and clear.

I know that it’s smokeless lube by the response you got, which is nonsense. There is no such animal as “standard lube”. But since you seem a contrary sort of fellow, do whatever you darn well please.

 

[1861]

Follow J-Bar’s excellent advice on how to find correct seating depth for your bullets. His instructions are detailed and clear.

J-Bar wrote "seat the bullet so it is slightly below the face of the cylinder" - but I have full 8 mm (0.315 inch) between the mouth of the case and the mouth of the cylinder - that's a lot; so if I seat the bullet just "slightly below the face of the cylinder" I might end up with too much space beneath the wadcutter to fill. I'm logical and cautious, not a "contrary sort of fellow".

I know that it’s smokeless lube by the response you got, which is nonsense. There is no such animal as “standard lube”

I suspected that, but I didn't know for sure, so thanks to you now I definitely know that they were bullshitting me.

 

[1861]

I learned a little trick to up the powder charge when I was using 38LC brass. Originally I could only fit a little over 14 grs, of 3F with the long hollow base bullet I was using and that sounded a little anemic.

Ah - but you used .38 Long Colt, and I have .38 Special.
.38 Long Colt - case length = 1.031 in = 26.2 mm
.38 Special - case length = 1.155 in = 29.3 mm
So I have 3.1 millimeters more length, which means about 1.7 grains more, so that would be about 16 grains (in correlation to your "Originally I could only fit a little over 14"), and 16 is not that anemic any more, but I'm sure I'll be able to pour even more than 16 grains, 18 or 20 should be doable.
Thanks.

 

[LRDGCO]

J-Bar wrote "seat the bullet so it is slightly below the face of the cylinder" - but I have full 8 mm (0.315 inch) between the mouth of the case and the mouth of the cylinder - that's a lot; so if I seat the bullet just "slightly below the face of the cylinder" I might end up with too much space beneath the wadcutter to fill. I'm logical and cautious, not a "contrary sort of fellow".


I suspected that, but I didn't know for sure, so thanks to you now I definitely know that they were bullshitting me.

Seat the bullet as long as you like and fill the case with black powder to the base of the bullet, with a little compression, say 1/10”-1/8”. You cannot fit “too much” black powder in the case. I’d keep the lube grooves inside the case, but otherwise, seat to the length you like.

 

[1861]

with a little compression, say 1/10”-1/8”. You cannot fit “too much” black powder in the case. I’d keep the lube grooves inside the case

I agree that the lube grooves should be left inside the case, I've read the same thing from some others in the last few days too. That means that my wadcutter can protrude about 3.5 mm (0.138 inch) out of the case, which will give me additional 2 grains, approximately.

Thanks!

So - using the member Navy Six 2 post as a base for calculation, as already referenced in my last post - the total of grains which I could use will probably be approximately: 16 (the basic amount) + 2 (which will fit inside the hollow base) + 2 (provided by the 3.5 mm of extra length thanks to the protrusion of the wadcutter outside the case) = 20 grains in total (which could maybe even grow to 21 or 22, depending on how much will I manage to compress the powder, if any).

 

[1861]

If Navy Six 2 estimates (and my calculations based on those numbers) are correct, then I think we have together found the approximate answer to my question.
(If you see a flaw in these evaluations, please point it out.)
Here - https://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/DIPPERS.pdf - we can see in the first row the values for the BLACK FFFG: for the 20.7 grains of such powder, one needs a 5th Lee dipper, named 1.3
So based on everything written here today, I feel that'll be the right dipper for me. Agree?
Thanks all.

 

[Jim Watson]

The original load for .38 Special was about 21 grains of black powder and a 158 grain roundnose bullet.
Use of a hollowbase wadcutter will require adjustments described above.
There is no requirement to keep all the lube grooves in the case if you avoid grit sticking to the lubricant. Crimp into a lube groove if you want to.

I do not know what lubricant is on that bullet but three narrow grooves may not be enough of anything for black.

Do you have a regular Reloading manual? I do not consider YouTube adequate instruction and it is difficult to learn one question at a time on the gunboards, helpful as everybody tries to be.

 

[ShotgunDave]

I was thinking the same thing as Jim above. Those three little grooves may not carry enough lube. When I load for my .45 Colt, I put a lubed wad between the powder and the bullet, as well as lubing the bullet.

 

[1861]

Thanks Jim, I don't have reloading manual, because it's huge as a phone book, because it covers all types of ammunition, brass cases, powders and presses, all possible combinations, and most of it is about a modern hard ammo and smokeless powder. I will use just one type of (black) powder, one type of brass case, one type of revolver, one type of (soft lead) projectile - as defined in the first post. So I don't think I need such a huge book for just this one combination. I understand what you want to say, but I believe you'll agree that it would be overkill

 

[1861]

I was thinking the same thing as Jim above. Those three little grooves may not carry enough lube. When I load for my .45 Colt, I put a lubed wad between the powder and the bullet, as well as lubing the bullet.

Ok... so I'll need to lube it additionally. Or to clean the barrel more often. A few people pointed that out, so I agree. Thanks. Do you feel that the lubed wad is the best solution for me too, or maybe something else?