Reloading close to lands vs adequate bullet-neck engagement

[Kip.D]

Several questions. In my particular case , I'm reloading once fired Hornady 6.5 CM brass with Berger VLD 130gn and H4350 for precision/target shooting. I'm using Redding FL bushing sizing dies (.289 - .290 bushings) and Redding Competition seating die. Shoulder bump of .003. I determined CBTO with the Hornady comparator and came up with an average COAL of 2.940 @ jam in my Tikka T3X CTR/KRG. I'm considering using a .020 jump, so the working COAL would be 2.920. SAAMI spec for 6.5 CM COAL is 2.825, so my working COAL would be .095 longer than SAAMI. This gives very narrow engagement of the bullet on the case mouth wall of about .135 and seating depth of .330. (I was surprised to see that this round would fit in the stock Tikka magazine with room to spare- the Tikka mag can fit 2.948 COAL) I have discovered using Gordons Reloading Tool internal ballistics simulator for PC that bullet seating depth/COAL have a huge effect on pressure and safety.

1) Is such a short seating depth bad? If I load at SAAMI spec, jump is .115. Is it standard practice to have full bullet contact along the entire ID of the neck wall regardless of other factors?

2) With the Redding 6.5 CM and .223 Rem FL sizing dies set up for .003 shoulder bump, I have the decapper pin protruding ⅛" but occasionally, a case partially seizes while sizing. I have broken two cases with the rim remaining in the case holder and the case stuck in the die. I believe there was adequate Hornady One-Shot lube both times. Most cases are no problem. Now, when I feel the excessive resistance, I back out and throw the case away. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I have ordered TiN die bushing and carbide button.

A Berger document I just discovered
(https://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/COAL.pdf)
seems to encourage long COALs.

A thought occurred to me that if I want to load long, I could omit the expander button/stem when sizing. Go to smaller neck bushings to get a better bite on the bullet. With the expander installed, I believe the neck ID is gonna be the same no matter what sizing bushing I use.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[AJC1]

That's quite a bit so I'll address a few. Seating depth is a fine adjustment knob for optimal barrel timing. Run the berger seating depth test.
Seating depth and Sammi are mutually exclusive. Your hand loading and not a manufacturer so spec goes out the window.
Minimum bullet grip or surface interface is up to you but I like a caliber worth. Stretch that as you see fit.

 

[MEHavey]

I have broken two cases with the rim remaining in the case holder and the case stuck in the die.

In all my years (a lot ) of reloading, I have never experienced a stuck neck-expander to the point of true "stuckness," ...much less case/rim compromise.
But recently I've heard it mentioned more and more.. what gives ?

That said, if the OP has such neck problems as to start sticking/breaking the rims, I seriously suggest neck/shoulder annealing on that Creedmoor.

...occasionally, a case partially seizes while sizing.

Inconsistent Press spring is causing that, which usually means inconsistent sizing pressure/case lube.

I believe there was adequate Hornady One-Shot lube

After a decade of bad-mouthing Hornady 1-Shot, I actually tried starting using it -- as directed* -- about a year ago. I have to now admit it being the greatest stuff since sliced bread, -- used as directed.* But never inside the case/neck where it can catch/retain powder as it drops. I do spray it inside the sizer die... effectively lubing he expander button at same time... which dries and lasts a whole loading session.

*As-directed means sprayed on, cases rolled as sprayed, and at least 2 minutes full dry time.

Not withstanding dry neck, If expander ball sticks/squeaks/screeches ... time for annealing.

 

[Kip.D]

Not withstanding dry neck, If expander ball stick sticks/squeaks/screeches ... time for annealing

Even on almost new cases?

 

[Kip.D]

Minimum bullet grip or surface interface is up to you but I like a caliber worth. Stretch that as you see fit.

Ya- ⅛" pretty slim. I worked up specs on a load with Hornady 6.5 140 gn ELDMs and bullet grip is about 95% of the length neck @ .020" jump.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

As mentioned by @AJC1 , the rule of thumb is one caliber width in the neck.

So, a .30 cal would be at least .30" in the neck, according to that rule of thumb.

I usually try to abide by that rule. Usually. But, as already mentioned, you are handloading. You are in control.

 

[MEHavey]

Annealing...

Even on almost new cases?

If the neck brass is so stiff as to cause difficulty (including squeaking/screeching) withdrawing the expander ball, yes.

(but 1st try spritzing H-1-Shot inside the sizing die to lube the internals -- allowed dry -- and try it again as last resort)

.

 

[JFrank]

ME Harvey said; If neck brass is so stiff as to cause difficulty (including squeaking/screeching) withdrawing the expander ball,

IME A couple passes with a nylon brush will smooth out the carbon inside the necks and eliminate the squeaking / sticking.

 

[JFrank]

Several questions. In my particular case , I'm reloading once fired Hornady 6.5 CM brass with Berger VLD 130gn and H4350 for precision/target shooting. I'm using Redding FL bushing sizing dies (.289 - .290 bushings) and Redding Competition seating die. Shoulder bump of .003. I determined CBTO with the Hornady comparator and came up with an average COAL of 2.940 @ jam in my Tikka T3X CTR/KRG. I'm considering using a .020 jump, so the working COAL would be 2.920. SAAMI spec for 6.5 CM COAL is 2.825, so my working COAL would be .095 longer than SAAMI. This gives very narrow engagement of the bullet on the case mouth wall of about .135 and seating depth of .330. (I was surprised to see that this round would fit in the stock Tikka magazine with room to spare- the Tikka mag can fit 2.948 COAL) I have discovered using Gordons Reloading Tool internal ballistics simulator for PC that bullet seating depth/COAL have a huge effect on pressure and safety.

1) Is such a short seating depth bad? If I load at SAAMI spec, jump is .115. Is it standard practice to have full bullet contact along the entire ID of the neck wall regardless of other factors?

2) With the Redding 6.5 CM and .223 Rem FL sizing dies set up for .003 shoulder bump, I have the decapper pin protruding ⅛" but occasionally, a case partially seizes while sizing. I have broken two cases with the rim remaining in the case holder and the case stuck in the die. I believe there was adequate Hornady One-Shot lube both times. Most cases are no problem. Now, when I feel the excessive resistance, I back out and throw the case away. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I have ordered TiN die bushing and carbide button.

A Berger document I just discovered
(https://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/COAL.pdf)
seems to encourage long COALs.

A thought occurred to me that if I want to load long, I could omit the expander button/stem when sizing. Go to smaller neck bushings to get a better bite on the bullet. With the expander installed, I believe the neck ID is gonna be the same no matter what sizing bushing I use.

Thanks in advance!!

There really isn’t a need to load that long unless your gun won’t shoot anywhere else. And if that’s the case I would change bullets to better accommodate the freebore.. Berger VLD test might show the best accuracy window to be as much as .120 otl you’ll just have to test a bit. @AJC1 has you on the right track for minimum engagement.
Btw- brush the necks out lightly and adjust the expander to the correct depth.

 

[Varminterror]

Very first culprit to explore if you have a “hanging expander ball,” is the clearance you’ve allowed between the bottom of the neck of the die and the top of the expander button. If there isn’t sufficient clearance, the case neck will wedge in between the die body and the expander button and get stuck in the die. Sometimes, even with enough clearance - JUST enough - work hardened brass will offer considerable resistance in passing this transition.

Yet another good reason to size and expand in separate steps, using a mandrel expander.

Hornady Creedmoor brass does work harden pretty quickly compared to its Virgin or freshly annealed state. But… there’s no reason to think it should stick or screech, let alone get stuck after only a firing or three. I’ve taken some Hornady Creed brass to 8x firings without that kind of issue. This isn’t an Annealing issue, in my experienced opinion - I’m betting the ball is too close to the die neck, and you’re experiencing the few thicker pieces of brass, or harder or longer, getting a little wedged as you withdraw. Also sounds like you’re not getting the inside of case necks properly lubed.

Naturally, ensuring you get a good squirt of One Shot on the inside of the case neck to lube for the expander will reduce your friction on the ball, and offer better overall expanding.

So were it my dies, I’d remove the expander ball completely and use a mandrel expander, and double check to be sure my necks are getting properly lubed. If you’re not willing to mandrel expand, then I’d double check my neck clearance by dropping my decapping assembly a bit (it can run all the way to the bottom of the case, just don’t crash the button on the case web - having the top of the case neck still contacting the die neck as the ball enters the bottom of the neck doesn’t REALLY seem to actually improve concentricity, so don’t sweat too much there).

As to your cartridge length and seating depth - SAAMI COAL doesn’t mean squat for real world rifles. You know your jam length, pick your desired jump and load there. If you don’t feel like you have enough neck tension for your application, then personally, I’d either change bullet or change barrel, but seating deeper to improve neck tension in the case of a very long throat might be needed. Don’t get mislead by wive’s tales about having one caliber of bearing surface in the neck - it’s not based on any actual science, and promotes incredibly variable standards of neck tension from one caliber to the next.

 

[film495]

why though? what testing have you done so far? I'm not an expert, but as a general rule of thumb, if you haven't really worked a good bit with that cartrdige inside published load data and specs, you're trying to work out a problem here that you don't even know if it exists. possibly moving the COAL the other way, is more accurate, or will cycle more reliably, etc. etc.

 

[MEHavey]

...experiencing the few thicker pieces of brass.(?)

In that case (no pun intended) get/use a neck turner to uniform the case neck
That will either isolate/fix the problem, or remove it as an item of consideration.

(Again, I do not recommend spraying 1-Shot into a case. Spray/dry on expander ball only before doing anything else)

 

[Howa 9700]

Relative newb to reloading here, so consider the source, but I continue to struggle with concept of loading to the lands. Seems to be dogma among reloaders, but have never found a plausible explanation as to why or how it works. Have one reference to suggest it allows a constant start pressure, but that was cancelled out in LEE reloading manual with mention of factory crimp die. Won't elaborate on any of that except to say it is contradictory.

But what I keep coming back to is how many rifles are sold with impressive MOA guarantees, all of which are predicated on use of factory match ammo, which would imply ammo put together with some precision, but also to SAMMI specs. None of which is loaded to the lands of any particular gun, which tells me loading to the lands is a false narrative. Barking up the wrong tree.

Want further proof? Here is the first of a recently produced video series from Eric Cortina.......on accuracy of two different inexpensive factory rifles. This is not about the caliber. It is about tweaking rifles to get good accuracy. The kicker is.........it was all done with factory ammo.

First of a multi-part series.........

 

[AJC1]

Relative newb to reloading here, so consider the source, but I continue to struggle with concept of loading to the lands. Seems to be dogma among reloaders, but have never found a plausible explanation as to why or how it works. Have one reference to suggest it allows a constant start pressure, but that was cancelled out in LEE reloading manual with mention of factory crimp die. Won't elaborate on any of that except to say it is contradictory.

But what I keep coming back to is how many rifles are sold with impressive MOA guarantees, all of which are predicated on use of factory match ammo, which would imply ammo put together with some precision, but also to SAMMI specs. None of which is loaded to the lands of any particular gun, which tells me loading to the lands is a false narrative. Barking up the wrong tree.

Want further proof? Here is the first of a recently produced video series from Eric Cortina.......on accuracy of two different inexpensive factory rifles. This is not about the caliber. It is about tweaking rifles to get good accuracy. The kicker is.........it was all done with factory ammo.

First of a multi-part series.........

It's a special application technique. If your using vld bullets or cast at a range then it may or may not give you better accuracy. The issue comes if you get a ftf or the range is called cold and you are required to extract without ignition. A giant mess and not being able to continue immediately is the result. The worst area to be is touch. Avoid +.005 to -.005 that's no man's land.

 

[Varminterror]

In that case (no pun intended) get/use a neck turner to uniform the case neck
That will either isolate/fix the problem, or remove it as an item of consideration.

The work of neck turning MAY be pertinent, but it’s absolutely more work than simply lowering the decapping assembly ~20-50 thousandths of an inch… testing for case clearance is pretty straight forward, and it’s silly to recommend neck turning as a troubleshooting step here.

(Again, I do not recommend spraying 1-Shot into a case. Spray/dry on expander ball only before doing anything else)

This is also bad advice which doesn’t make any logical sense. Case neck lubrication as a process step isn’t a one time thing - which is why we don’t call it “expander ball lubrication.” Spraying the ball, or even wiping with some blessed wax lube like Imperial, will only provide lubrication for a few cases - variable lubrication at that - whereas lubing the cases themselves as recommended provides lubrication for an entire batch, with greater consistency than decaying lube sprayed onto the ball one time. Bad advice.

If you simply don’t like the idea of spraying lube inside of cases, then I suggest to the OP this advice is based on a lack of understanding of the chemical composition of the product, it’s interactions (rather lack thereof), and a lack of experience actually using this product in process.

 

[Kip.D]

Very first culprit to explore if you have a “hanging expander ball,” is the clearance you’ve allowed between the bottom of the neck of the die and the top of the expander button.

That sounds like it to me. I used "pin extending ⅛ to 3/16" below case bottom (instructions that came with the Redding die)- and I'm at about ⅛". The fact that some cases showed extreme resistance- with the next one passing freely, could be explained by this. I'll drop the button at least 1/16" and see how it goes.

 

[black mamba]

In looking at factory rounds, the shortest neck to bullet diameter that I can find is the 375 Ruger, which only has a neck length of .305" for 81.3% of bullet diameter. I use that number as my minimum bullet to neck contact.

 

[Varminterror]

Relative newb to reloading here, so consider the source, but I continue to struggle with concept of loading to the lands. Seems to be dogma among reloaders, but have never found a plausible explanation as to why or how it works.

I think you’ve missed a LOT of fantastic information from exceptionally experienced sources if you have not yet been educated as to why jamming bullets has potential to promote precision.

It’s pretty simple. The smallest groups in the world are shot in short range benchrest. This game has evolved to prove out that flat based bullets with their bases seated ahead of the shoulder/neck junction to eliminate destabilizing and deforming lateral forces on the bullet base, with great case neck support and consistent introduction between secant ogive bullets and the leade, with a shoulder angle which directs a flame front to reflect within the case neck rather than the chamber throat, fired from a bare metal clean bore (and having all of this blessed by a aboriginal medicine man which turned 147 years old on a Tuesday, coinciding with the Full Moon) is a recipe for podium performance, including world records. Yes, doing all of this comes with a lot of consequences which aren’t particularly favorable, or even tolerable in any other kind of shooting sport.

The idea, in summation, is to control how we introduce the bullets into the leade so we know it is consistent, and then promote consistent primary ignition through that increased early resistance.

Have one reference to suggest it allows a constant start pressure, but that was cancelled out in LEE reloading manual with mention of factory crimp die. Won't elaborate on any of that except to say it is contradictory.

Plainly, Lee’s manual in particular, and most of their products corresponding to their recommended practices and processes, are designed in whole to produce generic, safe, reliable, foolproof ammunition. The Lee manual is NOT written to create precise ammunition. No precision or score world record in any shooting sport is set with the paradigm of process design recommended in the Lee manual (or really any common reloading manual, frankly).

But what I keep coming back to is how many rifles are sold with impressive MOA guarantees, all of which are predicated on use of factory match ammo, which would imply ammo put together with some precision, but also to SAMMI specs. None of which is loaded to the lands of any particular gun, which tells me loading to the lands is a false narrative. Barking up the wrong tree.

If you’re impressed by a standard of 1moa, then yes, you’re barking up the wrong tree. In quality rifles, a guy can largely throw a dart in the dark and find a 1moa load, it’s simply not a difficult hurdle to clear. As mentioned regarding the quality of information in the Lee manual, you’re simply talking about a different standard of performance. Jamming bullets doesn’t turn a 1.5” group into a 1” group, it’s used by competitors to turn .1” groups with occasional flyers at .3”, which take them completely out of the ranking, into reliable .099” groups.

Want further proof? Here is the first of a recently produced video series from Eric Cortina.......on accuracy of two different inexpensive factory rifles. This is not about the caliber. It is about tweaking rifles to get good accuracy. The kicker is.........it was all done with factory ammo.

First of a multi-part series.........

What “proof” do you think is found in this series? That a 4moa factory rifle can be modified to shoot 1/2moa? Have you done any research to understand how well a 100yrd half MOA rifle might rank in any Benchrest or F-class competition? These videos don’t illustrate the bleeding edge of potential precision. Check out the performance standard which Erik Cortina has lived - which made him sufficiently credentialed and famous to be able to make money doing these collaborations and videos like this… hint - half MOA groups at 100yrds ain’t what made Cortina a household name among riflemen.

The only things demonstrated in these videos is 1) how little it really takes to achieve sub-MOA performance at 100yrds with factory rifles and ammo, and 2) how ignorant the average rifle owner really is to that fact, since they’re expected to be impressed or surprised by these results.

 

[Varminterror]

In looking at factory rounds, the shortest neck to bullet diameter that I can find is the 375 Ruger, which only has a neck length of .305" for 81.3% of bullet diameter. I use that number as my minimum bullet to neck contact.

When you compare proportionality of hoop strength, gripping surface area, and moment of inertia for various cartridges, this relationship between bullet diameter and bearing surface seating contact completely falls apart.

Here’s some review of this topic I offered earlier this week. This rule of thumb for 81% or 1 caliber of contact in the case neck has no actual proportionality on gripping strength relative to the forces the respective bullets experience.

A 416 Stroker with a 500grn bullet seated to 1 caliber has 3.3x greater neck contact than a 223/5.56 seated to 1 caliber, but shoots a bullet with around 6.5-10x greater moment of inertia. 308win has about 80% greater contact over the 223/5.56, but 2.3x greater inertia. One end of this spectrum or the other is either grossly under gripping or grossly over-gripping, because the proportionality of inertia to gripping area isn’t constant.

So when a round experiences recoil in a magazine, we have 2-3x greater grip strength in a large cartridge than we have in a small bore cartridge, but 3-10x greater inertia. When we drop a 223/5.56 cartridge, we have 3-10x greater inertia to shift the bullet, but only 1.8-3.3x greater gripping surface…

Equally - are we running our bolts 2-3 times harder because we have a larger round such that we’d need 2x the gripping strength on a 308win than on a 5.56/223 to prevent pushing bullets into the case during feeding? Or are we running a 223/5.56 bolt only 1/2 or 1/3 as hard as when we hold a 308?

It’s just bunk that sure sounded good when one guy said it to another, so that guy said it to another guy…

 

[Kip.D]

Relative newb to reloading here, so consider the source, but I continue to struggle with concept of loading to the lands. Seems to be dogma among reloaders, but have never found a plausible explanation as to why or how it works. Have one reference to suggest it allows a constant start pressure, but that was cancelled out in LEE reloading manual with mention of factory crimp die. Won't elaborate on any of that except to say it is contradictory.

But what I keep coming back to is how many rifles are sold with impressive MOA guarantees, all of which are predicated on use of factory match ammo, which would imply ammo put together with some precision, but also to SAMMI specs. None of which is loaded to the lands of any particular gun, which tells me loading to the lands is a false narrative. Barking up the wrong tree.

Want further proof? Here is the first of a recently produced video series from Eric Cortina.......on accuracy of two different inexpensive factory rifles. This is not about the caliber. It is about tweaking rifles to get good accuracy. The kicker is.........it was all done with factory ammo.

First of a multi-part series.........

I'm not taking a position as to whether running close to the lands is advisable or not- the point of my post is to discuss the limitations I'm running into as I consider a full range COAL options. I would like to be able to safely try in any of my rifles a full range of COALs- up to, say .015" OTL.

 

[Kip.D]

It's a special application technique. If your using vld bullets or cast at a range then it may or may not give you better accuracy. The issue comes if you get a ftf or the range is called cold and you are required to extract without ignition. A giant mess and not being able to continue immediately is the result. The worst area to be is touch. Avoid +.005 to -.005 that's no man's land.

Ya- at this point, I'm using 0.015" OTL as my max working COAL.

 

[MEHavey]

[neck turning] more work than simply lowering the decapping assembly ~20-50 thousandths of an inch…
testing for case clearance is pretty straight forward, and it’s silly to recommend neck turning as a
troubleshooting step here.

Weeeeelll.... I'm not going to go so far as to say "it's silly,"
but your advice is a best 1st step.

 

[Kip.D]

The work of neck turning MAY be pertinent, but it’s absolutely more work than simply lowering the decapping assembly ~20-50 thousandths of an inch… testing for case clearance is pretty straight forward, and it’s silly to recommend neck turning as a troubleshooting step here.

View attachment 1111672



This is also bad advice which doesn’t make any logical sense. Case neck lubrication as a process step isn’t a one time thing - which is why we don’t call it “expander ball lubrication.” Spraying the ball, or even wiping with some blessed wax lube like Imperial, will only provide lubrication for a few cases - variable lubrication at that - whereas lubing the cases themselves as recommended provides lubrication for an entire batch, with greater consistency than decaying lube sprayed onto the ball one time. Bad advice.

If you simply don’t like the idea of spraying lube inside of cases, then I suggest to the OP this advice is based on a lack of understanding of the chemical composition of the product, it’s interactions (rather lack thereof), and a lack of experience actually using this product in process.

Though a newb, I'm not keen at all on neck turning. And am not considering going there at this point.

Before sizing, my cases have been decapped and cleaned in cob media. I intend to go to wet stainless process when I get a chance. I spray lube my batch of cases on the outside body and inside of necks using different angles. After sizing, I clean the cases again to get rid of the lube in the necks.

In your illustration, the area of concern is displayed. However, both pictures show same decapping stem depth. The issue is that there may be occasions where both the button and neck sizer are acting simultaneously if the button is too high. I'm guessing there's at least .002 interference which would explain the harsh resistance I'm feeling. Per your advice, I'm gonna lower the button 20 - 50K now.

 

[Kip.D]

When you compare proportionality of hoop strength, gripping surface area, and moment of inertia for various cartridges, this relationship between bullet diameter and bearing surface seating contact completely falls apart.

Here’s some review of this topic I offered earlier this week. This rule of thumb for 81% or 1 caliber of contact in the case neck has no actual proportionality on gripping strength relative to the forces the respective bullets experience.



So when a round experiences recoil in a magazine, we have 2-3x greater grip strength in a large cartridge than we have in a small bore cartridge, but 3-10x greater inertia. When we drop a 223/5.56 cartridge, we have 3-10x greater inertia to shift the bullet, but only 1.8-3.3x greater gripping surface…

Equally - are we running our bolts 2-3 times harder because we have a larger round such that we’d need 2x the gripping strength on a 308win than on a 5.56/223 to prevent pushing bullets into the case during feeding? Or are we running a 223/5.56 bolt only 1/2 or 1/3 as hard as when we hold a 308?

It’s just bunk that sure sounded good when one guy said it to another, so that guy said it to another guy…

I wanted to try the Berger 130 VLDs close to the lands, but obviously the possible lack of sufficient grip and concentricity is concerning, and I am hesitant. An idea I had: size without the decapper/expander button and adjust neck tension with various sizing die bushings (.290, .289. .288, etc.). My cases have no dings in the mouths. This is discussed in some of Sam Millard's (Panhandle Precision) videos. Load rounds one-at-a-time into chamber- not using the magazine other than as a floor.

 

[Kip.D]

I found this article yesterday: discussion of CBTO and COAL issues from Berger. Has nudged me towards trying close-to-the-lands COALs.