Reloading for conversion cylinders

[mackg]

Anyone load for 45 acp in a conversion cylinder?

http://cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html
http://cowboy45special.com/User_data.html

This is a rimmed version of the ACP round.

 

[CraigC]

This thread was sleeping but I found it in a search and there's some info that's a little weird here.

8 grains of Unique under a 250 grain bullet is too hot to be considered 'Cowboy' ammo. It's over 14000 PSI.

Speer #14 lists a 250gr swaged and a 255gr cast bullet with Unique at 8.5gr and 9.5gr maximums. In fact, 8.0gr is below the start charge for the 250gr swaged. So no, 8.0gr is certainly not over 14,000psi. It should yield around 800fps and THAT is a cowboy load.

 

[AlexanderA]

Driftwood Johnson wrote:

Kirst conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remmie chambered for 45 Colt only have five chambers and a small dummy chamber. This means the cylinder walls are thicker than the six chamber R&D cylinder. With the thin walled R&D cylinder, which is the cylinder that is referred to in the pamphlet I scanned, the chamber walls are much thinner. That is why they are recommending 'cowboy loads' for that cylinder.

Kenny Howell sold the R&D "slant chamber" patent (which allowed putting 6 shots into a cylinder that size) to Taylors, which is now the exclusive maker of the 6-shot cylinders. But Howell is continuing to produce 5-shot versions, under the "Old West Conversions" brand. The 5-shot Howell cylinders have much thicker chamber walls (even compared to the Kirst cylinders), and so (especially when combined with the Uberti Remmie with its massive top strap), they should be safe to use with any standard .45 LC ammunition.

The 6-shot R&D cylinder, for safety, really needs to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chanmber. That makes it effectively a 5 shot. The 5-shot Howell cylinder has safety notches between the chambers, and can be carried with all 5 chambers loaded and the hammer resting in a safety notch. This means that there's really no advantage in going with the R&D "6 shot" cylinder. (BTW, they're the same price.)

The Kirst conversion, with its non-rotating backing plate, by its nature cannot have safety notches and therefore must rely on the "dummy" chamber as a safe place to set down the hammer. This takes up space and means that the chamber walls of the remaining 5 chambers are proportionately thinner than in the 5-shot Howell design. It also means that the Kirst cylinder is an asymmetrical design (if that's a concern).

 

[faustopph]

Driftwood Johnson wrote:



Kenny Howell sold the R&D "slant chamber" patent (which allowed putting 6 shots into a cylinder that size) to Taylors, which is now the exclusive maker of the 6-shot cylinders. But Howell is continuing to produce 5-shot versions, under the "Old West Conversions" brand. The 5-shot Howell cylinders have much thicker chamber walls (even compared to the Kirst cylinders), and so (especially when combined with the Uberti Remmie with its massive top strap), they should be safe to use with any standard .45 LC ammunition.

The 6-shot R&D cylinder, for safety, really needs to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chanmber. That makes it effectively a 5 shot. The 5-shot Howell cylinder has safety notches between the chambers, and can be carried with all 5 chambers loaded and the hammer resting in a safety notch. This means that there's really no advantage in going with the R&D "6 shot" cylinder. (BTW, they're the same price.)

The Kirst conversion, with its non-rotating backing plate, by its nature cannot have safety notches and therefore must rely on the "dummy" chamber as a safe place to set down the hammer. This takes up space and means that the chamber walls of the remaining 5 chambers are proportionately thinner than in the 5-shot Howell design. It also means that the Kirst cylinder is an asymmetrical design (if that's a concern).

I have a Kirst cylinder ,five shot, that was made early in production before the fake/safety chamber cylinders were made. This cylinder was made to load five and let the firing pin rest between case rims.Talk about thick and extra metal.This cylinder has plenty extra.
Mine was made for a Uberti and my revolver is an Armi San Paolo.It fits and works fine. Except for the fact, that I have to modify it slightly for the firing pin to go forward enough to stop rotation of the cylinder when resting between case rims.All it takes is to dremel or mill a little metal off the backing plate above the firing pin. This will make it so the hammer nose doesn't hit the plate before the firing pin is depressed far enough forward.

 

[AlexanderA]

Mine was made for a Uberti and my revolver is an Armi San Paolo. It fits and works fine.

I have both an Uberti Remington clone and an Armi San Paolo (Euroarms). The original percussion cylinders on them are close matches to each other, except that the locking notches (bolt notches) on the Armi San Paolo are narrower than on the Uberti. This means that a cylinder made for an Uberti will fit in an Armi San Paolo (but not the other way around), but that there might be excessive rotational play when the cylinder is in the locked position. You might want to check for this kind of looseness. (It's true that the hand exerts upward pressure and so it might be hard to tell about the cylinder alignment and lockup.)

The other thing to note is that the top strap on the Uberti is noticably more massive than on the Armi San Paolo. This gives the Uberti more reserve strength when dealing with a cartridge conversion.

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

There are so many random answers here I dont trust any of them except the ones that line up with the info that Driftwood provided.
but thats just me.
YMMV
smokeless powder should never be used in any gun that is designated as a black powder only fire arm. doing otherwise is just plum stupidity.
Ignorance is curable stupidity will earn you a Darwin award.
I don't use conversion cylinders so i am just inserting my opinion.

 

[faustopph]

The manufacturers all will tell you that smokeless is safe if kept to the limits they have set for the cylinder they make .
Following manufacturers limits does not make anyone stupid,just safe.Thousands of rounds through the different conversion cylinders can't be wrong.

 

[faustopph]

I have both an Uberti Remington clone and an Armi San Paolo (Euroarms). The original percussion cylinders on them are close matches to each other, except that the locking notches (bolt notches) on the Armi San Paolo are narrower than on the Uberti. This means that a cylinder made for an Uberti will fit in an Armi San Paolo (but not the other way around), but that there might be excessive rotational play when the cylinder is in the locked position. You might want to check for this kind of looseness. (It's true that the hand exerts upward pressure and so it might be hard to tell about the cylinder alignment and lockup.)

The other thing to note is that the top strap on the Uberti is noticably more massive than on the Armi San Paolo. This gives the Uberti more reserve strength when dealing with a cartridge conversion.

It locks up very well. The movement is very slight and within what is sometimes seen on factory revolvers.

 

[CraigC]

smokeless powder should never be used in any gun that is designated as a black powder only fire arm.

The manufacturers say it's safe. The REAL gunsmith's who perform the conversions say it's safe. I've never seen one that specifies blackpowder only.

doing otherwise is just plum stupidity.

That's cute. You're blatantly calling every member here who uses smokeless powder in their cartridge conversions "stupid". How very High Road.

Ignorance is curable stupidity will earn you a Darwin award.

Then hopefully you can educate yourself.

I don't use conversion cylinders so i am just inserting my uneducated opinion.

Fixed it for you.

 

[faustopph]

There are so many random answers here I dont trust any of them except the ones that line up with the info that Driftwood provided.
but thats just me.
YMMV
smokeless powder should never be used in any gun that is designated as a black powder only fire arm. doing otherwise is just plum stupidity.
Ignorance is curable stupidity will earn you a Darwin award.
I don't use conversion cylinders so i am just inserting my opinion.

Conversion cylinders have been in use for more years than anyone has been alive on this board.The original conversion cylinders were used, using 1800 metallurgy well into the beginnings of the smokeless powder era. Just saying that the conversion cylinder is only as safe as any firearm you may use.They all have limits.
Smokeless loads as specified by the modern day makers of cartridge conversions are very safe. When was the last time you heard about a newly made conversion cylinder used within it's limitations ,wreck a gun or blow itself up?

 

[freedom475]

Amen CraigC!!!!

These cylinders have been around way longer than the word "Cowboy" has been used to identify ammo!

These conversions are safe with ANY load data intended for the SAA era revolvers.

 

[Busyhands94]

The Kirst was (is?) also made for the 45ACP,,,and I know this 45acp load is way hotter (higher pressure) than a 45C...And there is no 45acp ammo (that I am aware of), that is listed as "Cowboy"....the guns and cylinders still hold the 45acp pressure just fine.

That being said I sure don't think guys should try to make magnums out of cap&balls....but the ultra week, mouse phart cowboy gamer loads are not even close to the power you get from standard 45C's or 45acp's and the full 45C case holding 35-40grains of real black powder behind a 250gr cast bullet really booms and has lots more power than the "Cowboy" ammo.

You will not have any problems if you follow published standard 45 colt loading data using cast bullets in the conversions. The data in loading manuals listed as safe for blackpowder era guns will be safe in the Konversion. (Ruger/TC loads will blow up your gun!!)

Cartridge overall length will be your limiting problem so use light weight bullets and check them for length before you load a bunch of them. That is why I use the .451 230gr xtp as it is made for the 45acp and has no crimp groove.

So am I reading this correctly that standard velocity .45 Colts are safe to use in a conversion cylinder?

If I owned a conversion cylinder I'd just use a hot load of Triple Seven, perhaps under a nice Kieth bullet of soft lead. That would be a pretty decent load! Or better yet some really light bullets you can push insanely fast with a hefty charge of Triple Seven.

 

[freedom475]

Just read the data...both Cowboy and Standard 45colts are just below the 14,000psi mark....

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon Basic Manual.pdf

the conversions are suppose to be kept below 1000fps...probly to keep of "case-head-thrust" down.

Don't overload things with 777 and think you are being safe...Just follow the loading manual!