Hi guys, i just recently acquired an interest in shooting lead vs. fmj ammo. No reason really other than the price of bullets. Fortunately, i have gotten tons of free brass, so i all i do is load 'em up. But, looks like Missourri Bullet Co. has some good buys on their 9mm lead. My question is, what's the difference in loading for lead vs. fmj? I am using W231 for my loads now. Generally i'll shoot 115 grain FMJ, with around 4.5 grains at 1.10". Do you load lead lighter? Where can i find load data for lead? Thanks, hvychev77
reloading for lead vs. fmj ammo
- Thread starter hvychev77
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Don't load them any differently. You'll just get a tad more velocity out of cast bullets. Less friction.
You do load them differently. If you push your bullet too lard with fast burning powders, you'll get leading. Your 4.2 grain load is fine, however I would not go to 5 grains like with a FMJ.
You also have to make sure the bullet is large enough in diameter to seal the bore AND the freebore when the round is chambered, else you'll get leading. You have to bell the case mouth more to make sure lead is not shaved during seating.
If I were you, I would first determine your bore and chamber dimensions before buying any bullets. That way you won't have problems.
What gun?
You also have to make sure the bullet is large enough in diameter to seal the bore AND the freebore when the round is chambered, else you'll get leading. You have to bell the case mouth more to make sure lead is not shaved during seating.
If I were you, I would first determine your bore and chamber dimensions before buying any bullets. That way you won't have problems.
What gun?
choppinlow
Member
They are loaded differently - you normally shouldn't push lead as fast as you can jacketed. Check the loading manuals and you will find different load data.
Main difference is you need to know the diameter of the bullets and the groove diameter of your barrel. Bullet fit is more critical for lead bullets. I shoot .358" lead in my 9mm and leading is minimal. Fit is more important than BHN as any hardness bullet that is too small will lead the barrel...
i guess i should have said which guns, as previously asked. i'll be shooting these through a beretta 92fs and a kahr cw9. looks like miss. bullet co. has their 9mm as .356 diameter. thanks for the responses. any suggestions as to the guns i listed here?
Iron Sight
Member
After you determine the bore and chamber size.............How do you obtain the correct size bullets??
The Beretta has a .359"- .360" freebore, so I would use .358" bullets. I dunno what Kahr uses. For the Beretta, I recommend the Cowboy #2 or similar bullet at 1.040" OAL. I'd start at 3.8grs of 231. That combo shot under 1" at 15 yards from my M9 with zero leading.
LUCKYDAWG13
Member
i shoot a lot of cast out of my Beretta 92FS i size to .357 and i like
Bullseye 3.8 gr under my 125gr boolit
Bullseye 3.8 gr under my 125gr boolit
Magnum Shooter
Member
My preferred Beretta 92fs load is the RCBS mold 124g TC sized to .356 and lubed with Black Moly. It shoots about an inch below the point of aim at 25 yards, but with a little Kentucky windage and a full magazine I can blow the bullseye out of the target.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You can push cast bullets of proper hardness to at least 1400fps without a gas check before you have to start worrying about leading. I don't think that's going to be an issue here. I have used a cast bullet or two. 
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Yes, I am.
Do you need your cast bullets to be a proper fit for the bore? Yes.
Do you need your bullet hardness to be matched to the velocity? Yes.
Do you load them any different (in a 9mm)? No.
Can you push them fast enough to cause leading in a 9mm? No.
Do you need your cast bullets to be a proper fit for the bore? Yes.
Do you need your bullet hardness to be matched to the velocity? Yes.
Do you load them any different (in a 9mm)? No.
Can you push them fast enough to cause leading in a 9mm? No.
LiveLife
Member
Instead of bickering among ourselves, let's focus and help out the OP (maybe THR should have a "bickering" sub-category where spirited reloading discussions could take place without detracting from the OP).
hvychev77, as many suggested already, when loading for lead bullets, you first want to slug your barrel to determine the groove-to-groove diameter and use lead bullet that's sized .001" over to provide proper bullet-to-barrel fit. However, many have posted that Beretta barrels are oversized and your groove diameter might be .357"+ instead of more typical .355"-.356". If your Kahr barrel's groove diameter is less than the Beretta, you have a dilemma as the bullet properly sized for the Beretta maybe too large for the Kahr. If you use the bullet properly sized for the Beretta, you'll experience more leading.
Also, in general I need to push lighter 115 gr bullet at high-to-near max load data to reliably cycle the slide of my pistols and having to drive the lead bullet harder will also add to the leading issue. So I definitely suggest you go with the heavier 125 gr bullet as you can obtain reliable slide cycling/feeding/extraction of case using mid-to-high range W231/HP-38 load data.
Unless you want to have two different sized lead bullets, one solution that I could suggest is to order bullet diameter properly sized for Kahr at 15 BHN instead of 18 BHN (Missouri will do this if you order 1000+ bullets and charge you $10 extra) - http://www.missouribullet.com/faq.php
Hodgdon website and 1999 Winchester load data provide sufficient lead load data for you to reference when loading Missouri 125 gr RN (SmallBall) which has shorter and rounder nose profile that increases the length of the bearing surface of the bullet (part of bullet that rides the rifling). This will result in working OAL that's shorter than typical 1.125"-1.135" OAL for 115/124 FMJ bullets. IME, 1.080"-1.110" OAL will feed/chamber reliably in various pistols but these OALs will seat the bullet base deeper in the case neck which would increase the chamber pressure than what was published. Due to this reason, I use .2 gr lower for start/max powder charge for my work up.
Here's current Hodgdon load data:
Below is a comparison picture of Missouri RN vs SWC vs CN and you can see that the bearing surface/nose lengths are different and the resulting working OAL.
With Missouri 125 gr RN (SmallBall) bullet using mid-to-high range load data, this load has worked well in .355"-.356" barrels without leading. If your barrel is oversized at .357"+ and use .356" sized bullets, you will probably experience leading, poor accuracy and maybe tumbling bullets/key holing at target.
You could try but many have done it with issues.
hvychev77, as many suggested already, when loading for lead bullets, you first want to slug your barrel to determine the groove-to-groove diameter and use lead bullet that's sized .001" over to provide proper bullet-to-barrel fit. However, many have posted that Beretta barrels are oversized and your groove diameter might be .357"+ instead of more typical .355"-.356". If your Kahr barrel's groove diameter is less than the Beretta, you have a dilemma as the bullet properly sized for the Beretta maybe too large for the Kahr. If you use the bullet properly sized for the Beretta, you'll experience more leading.
Also, in general I need to push lighter 115 gr bullet at high-to-near max load data to reliably cycle the slide of my pistols and having to drive the lead bullet harder will also add to the leading issue. So I definitely suggest you go with the heavier 125 gr bullet as you can obtain reliable slide cycling/feeding/extraction of case using mid-to-high range W231/HP-38 load data.
Unless you want to have two different sized lead bullets, one solution that I could suggest is to order bullet diameter properly sized for Kahr at 15 BHN instead of 18 BHN (Missouri will do this if you order 1000+ bullets and charge you $10 extra) - http://www.missouribullet.com/faq.php
Although some lead vs jacketed load data may look close enough to be exchangeable, but this is not always the case and I caution you to be safe and follow the published lead load data for lead bullets.hvychev77 said:
Hodgdon website and 1999 Winchester load data provide sufficient lead load data for you to reference when loading Missouri 125 gr RN (SmallBall) which has shorter and rounder nose profile that increases the length of the bearing surface of the bullet (part of bullet that rides the rifling). This will result in working OAL that's shorter than typical 1.125"-1.135" OAL for 115/124 FMJ bullets. IME, 1.080"-1.110" OAL will feed/chamber reliably in various pistols but these OALs will seat the bullet base deeper in the case neck which would increase the chamber pressure than what was published. Due to this reason, I use .2 gr lower for start/max powder charge for my work up.
Here's current Hodgdon load data:
Here's 1999 Winchester load data for 124 gr Lead RN bullet:
Below is a comparison picture of Missouri RN vs SWC vs CN and you can see that the bearing surface/nose lengths are different and the resulting working OAL.
With Missouri 125 gr RN (SmallBall) bullet using mid-to-high range load data, this load has worked well in .355"-.356" barrels without leading. If your barrel is oversized at .357"+ and use .356" sized bullets, you will probably experience leading, poor accuracy and maybe tumbling bullets/key holing at target.
You could try but many have done it with issues.
You shouldn't be.
In my post I said you should not try to achieve high velocity with lead bullets using fast burning powders, else you'll pay for it with leading. You hit 1400 FPS with 115gr lead bullets using 231 without leading?? Really? Cuz I'm calling BS on that one.
LiveLife
Member
This would work if the .358" sized bullet rounds will feed and fully chamber reliably in the Kahr barrel/chamber also.918v said:
WOW!! alright, now my mind is sufficiently blown. So, i'll sound like a newbie here for sure, but i thought you could just buy the caliber ( 9mm ) that you wanted in lead bullets and then tailor your recipe if need be. So, i'm obviously a little off base here. So, how do you go about slugging your barrel to determine the correct size? also, i see folks here posting about 'lubing' the bullets too? what is that all about? I just wanna get it right before spending money and possibly loading incorrectly......thanks again for all the info guys. What a learning process!!
Speer cast bullet manual shows 4.5 to 5.0 Grs W-231 with a 115 Gr lead bullet. Using your 4.5 Grs W-231, load up some Missouri bullets, shoot them, and see if they lead. If they don't you are good to go. Chances are they won't. If they do, and it is right at the beginning of the rifling, clean the barrel, load some up at 4.7 Grs, and try it again.
Try it first. Perhaps we won't have to keep "debating" anything at all.
Try it first. Perhaps we won't have to keep "debating" anything at all.
You don't have to slug your barrel. The Beretta has a .357" bore and a .359" throat. They are consistent. I used to have three. As far as your Kahr goes, you should obtain a .358" bullet, place it onto a hard surface and smack the nose with a hammer. This will bump it up in diameter. Then load it onto a case. Remove the barrel. Try to insert the dummy round into the chamber. It won't chamber. Tap it into the chamber. The bullet will assume the dimensions of the freebore. Tap the bullet out with a cleaning rod. Measure the freebore imprint with your dial caliper. It will be between .357" and .360". Select the bullet size .0005" or so smaller then the freebore diameter.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I don't use 231 but I do use Unique and .44Mag loads hit 1450fps, in a rifle. No leading. Here's another.
Instead of all the stupid bickering and "I'm smarter than you" nonsense. Buy some 9mm cast bullets, load them to your same OAL and go shooting.
See if the manufacturer offers bullets in the size you need. Some commercial casters only offer "standard" bullet diameters; 451" for .45 cal., 430" for .44 cal., 365" for 9mm, and 357" for 357 Mag/.38 Spec. Others will offer a few diameters per caliber, I like Beartooth Bullets.I cast my own and size with Lee push through size dies. If you purchase over size bullets, you can easily use a Lee size set-up to custom size bullets to your needs.
The OP is talking about using 231 with 115gr bullets in the 9mm. You are way out of context. It's not that I'm smarter than you. I was giving the OP advice because I actually have alot of experience with his gun and lead bullets. I don't understand why you even responded the way you did.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The standard bullet sizes for the 9mm are .355" for jacketed and .356" for lead. Those Missouri bullets will shoot just fine in both your pistols. You usually need less powder to push a lead bullet than a jacketed bullet to the same velocities. I suggest using less powder than you do with FMJ bullets.
I rarely use a 115gr bullet. When I load a 124/125gr jacketed bullet in the 9mm I charge 4.4gr W231. With a 124/125gr lead bullet the charge weight is 4.0gr W231.
When I do load a 115gr bullet in the 9mm I charge 4.4gr W231 and with a 115gr FMJ bullet the charge weight is 4.8gr to 5.0gr W231.
None of those charges are at the Max charge weights but they shoot well for me...
I rarely use a 115gr bullet. When I load a 124/125gr jacketed bullet in the 9mm I charge 4.4gr W231. With a 124/125gr lead bullet the charge weight is 4.0gr W231.
When I do load a 115gr bullet in the 9mm I charge 4.4gr W231 and with a 115gr FMJ bullet the charge weight is 4.8gr to 5.0gr W231.
None of those charges are at the Max charge weights but they shoot well for me...
gamestalker
member
There is a significant difference in the process. One must know their barrl diameter, as in slug it, and have lead data. Don't just jump in and load lead in the same manner as jacketed, or same use the powder data of jacketed.
GS
GS
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