Reloading-Loctite on Primer Pockets?

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73ch13

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So a buddy of me who I consider to be pretty knowledgeable in the firearms field informed me that if I'm loading 5.56 NATO, I should be using red loctite to lock in my primers. This doesn't seem right to me.

His claim is that the higher pressures in the 5.56 NATO Cartridge will cause the primers to back out due to the increased pressure and loctite will prevent this.

Is this accurate at all?
 
I have never seen or heard of using red loctite on 5.56 or any ammo, if my primers were
that loose I would toss my brass,
 
By that logic 5.56 is the highest pressure cartridge ever invented! More than any magnum.

Could he be messing with you?

Laphroaig
 
I was under the impression that ANY sealant that would be used will shear at the pressures encountered, that is why they are crimped in as well. Sealant only seals out water, oil, etc. Additionally you would have to seal the projectile as well to make it absolutely vapor tight. The commercial products I have used smell and look like automotive touch up lacquer to me.
 
The military ammo has a crimped in primer to hold it in just in case of high pressure that would loosen up the pocket enough to have a primer come out, get into the innards of the lower and stop the gun from functioning. Primers back out in low pressure loads. Normal pressure loads re-seat them when the case head slams back against the breech.

There should not be over pressure, and so no loose primers, but just in case, the crimp would stop the primer from falling out of a loosened up primer pocket.
Loctite would not stop that.

The military also uses sealer on the primers, as extra precaution to keep the powder dry should the ammo get wet.

You don't need to worry about either. We remove the remnant of the primer crimp when we reuse military brass, and unless you are going to store your ammo in your fish bowl, you are highly unlikely to have moisture problems.

Welcome to THR
 
The military ammo has a crimped in primer to hold it in just in case of high pressure that would loosen up the pocket enough to have a primer come out, get into the innards of the lower and stop the gun from functioning. Primers back out in low pressure loads. Normal pressure loads re-seat them when the case head slams back against the breech.

There should not be over pressure, and so no loose primers, but just in case, the crimp would stop the primer from falling out of a loosened up primer pocket.
Loctite would not stop that.

The military also uses sealer on the primers, as extra precaution to keep the powder dry should the ammo get wet.

You don't need to worry about either. We remove the remnant of the primer crimp when we reuse military brass, and unless you are going to store your ammo in your fish bowl, you are highly unlikely to have moisture problems.

Welcome to THR
There you go, that is a good post you can trust.

Yes, welcome to the forum.
 
I call BS. Which number Loctite?

Around here, when people talk about the various colors of Loctite they are usually refering to different strengths of threadlocker. Not exactly the proper stuff for this application. What you want is a retaining compound. Loctite has several of those to choose from. However, all the ones that I have encountered are green...



And are only rated for few thousand PSI shear strength.
 
. So a buddy of me who I consider to be pretty knowledgeable in the firearms field informed me that if I'm loading 5.56 NATO, I should be using red loctite to lock in my primers. This doesn't seem right to me.


Are you loading 5.56 or are you loading 223 in a 5.56 case.

If you are loading using 5.56 specific data, where are you getting it.

The military crimps their ammo because much of it is fired in fully automatic weapons and the violent actions can knock out a primer. It has nothing to do with pressure.

Even if you believe that the 5.56 is loaded to higher pressure then the 223, that extra 5-7k psi is not going to blow a primer out.

There are plenty of cartridges loaded to higher pressures and none of them have to have the primer either crimped or glue in.
 
Thanks guys. That was my thoughts on it too.
First loctite is not designed to hold 50k psi and second, I just toss my brass when the primer pockets become loose. This was just so far fetched I had to see if anyone else heard of it.

Edit:Sealant isn't an issue for me I live in a desert.
 
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Is this accurate at all?
No but I see a way for you to make some money.

Bet him $100 that if he doesn't put loctite on them they won't pop out when he fires them.

Now, if you take a primed case, no powder or bullet and fire it, the primer can back out, unless you drill the flash hole to a larger diameter.
 
Are you loading 5.56 or are you loading 223 in a 5.56 case.

If you are loading using 5.56 specific data, where are you getting it.

I pull most of my 5.56 data from bullet manufacturers and reload manuals that specifically list the cartridge. I tell you its damn near impossible to find though.
I have two manuals out of 5 that actually list it.
 
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If loctite can hold a primer in during an over pressure event, how would one ever be able to deprime the case?

I think your friend is having fun with you on this one.
 
Nosler for example lists both 223 and 5.56 data.

If you read the technical specs/info on their data you will find that they seperated their data based on twist rate and bullet weight, Not on pressure.

They say their data for both the 223 and 5.56 are safe to load in either chamber, i.e. Same pressures.

I suspect Hornady does the same, but I do not have a #9 to verify.
 
His claim is that the higher pressures in the 5.56 NATO Cartridge will cause the primers to back out due to the increased pressure and loctite will prevent this.

Is this accurate at all?

Anyone loading to military pressures in the 223 or 5.56 is nuts. The original case pressures, back in the late 50's and early 60's, were 50,000 psia. However, all this cartridge has was velocity and the velocity was insufficient. The military began bumping the pressures up early, I think 52,000 psia, and they keep on bumping the pressures up.

Testing The Army’s M855A1 Standard Ball Cartridge

http://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ng-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/


In 1984, the USMC conducted a test comparing the Vietnam-era, 55-grain, M193 round to the then-new 62-grain, green-tipped M855, which had boosted chamber pressure from 50,000 p.s.i. to 53,000 p.s.i. Side-by-side, 6,000 rounds each were fired through M16A1s and M16A2s with the green-tip’s hotter load. While the M16A1s saw virtually no accuracy decline, the M16A2s saw their groups more than double in size-the sole variable was chamber pressure. And the new cartridge generates even greater pressure, perhaps 3,000 to 5,000 p.s.i.

For gas port pressure, the M855A1 generates 50 percent higher pressure (23,767 p.s.i.) Dept. of Defense photo by U.S. Army S/Sgt. Jason Epperson on the Special Ops 11.5-inch M4 barrel, compared to the 16,067 p.s.i. with the M16A2’s 20-inch barrel. That has been shown to cause port erosion, which boosts the automatic-fire rate, increasing the likelihood of jams. In the 2011 tests of new Army carbine prototypes, the barrels experienced “accelerated bolt wear” from firing the M855A1, because of higher chamber pressure and increased bore temperatures. A Special Operations Command test saw cracks appear on locking lugs and bolts at the cam pin holes on average at 6,000 rounds, but with as few as 3,000 rounds of “intense” full-automatic firing. The solution may be to find a means to count the number of rounds a rifle has fired.


These American Rifleman testers don't know the current pressure of M855A1 because the Army has decided to classify this information, but I believe the average pressure is over 60,000 psia with a max probably around 65,000 psia. The original proof pressure cartridge was 70,000 psia, so this load is insanely hot. The rifles were not designed for this sort of pressure and bolt lugs are going crack around the 5000 round mark, instead of the typical 10,000-15,000 with commercial 223.

No one should assume that the Army Ordnance Department actually knows what they are doing. The more Army decisions I see the more incompetence I see. Heck, they were going to burn all the Camp Minden artillery powder in the open air. When asked if they had tested the fumes for toxic chemicals, they told the questioner they had not because the temperatures around the burn pile were too hot!

Camp Minden: From blast to possible burn
http://www.ktbs.com/story/28065933/camp-minden-from-blast-to-possible-burn

These Army idiots could not conceive of a sensor on a stick, or a sensor at the end of a crane boom, or building scaffolding and sticking sensors above the fire. What these Army fools were going to do was burn millions of pounds of old propellant in the air and let the toxic fumes blow where the winds would lead them. Which would be over populated areas.

So, when it comes to mindlessly upping the pressures on their ammunition, the Civilians in the Army Ordnance Department will do it. I am confident these Army fools don't know the structural limits of their weapons and don't care if the things wear out quickly, because someone else is paying the bill. These are the same people who over loaded their HMMWV's about 17,000 pounds over gross, with armor. I listened to a Car Talk episode, Army Maintainers had called in and wanted to know if there was a way to increase the lifetime of their ball joints. Their ball joints were lasting for three weeks, when asked, they said the HMMWV was 17,000 pounds over its weight limits!. When something is that overloaded, there is nothing you can do, the parts are going to fail in three weeks, instead of a 20 year design limit.

So, if you are going to load 5.56 ammunition to 65,000 psia, you might as well glue the primer in, crimp it in, staple or duct tape it in, because the darn thing is going to blow.

The best solution is not to load ammunition to Army Stupid levels.
 
Regarding:
Now, if you take a primed case, no powder or bullet and fire it, the primer can back out, unless you drill the flash hole to a larger diameter.
I've won bets on that issue. I bet the primer would stay flush with several rimless bottleneck cartridge cases from .222 Rem to .358 Win; all with original flash hole diameters. They all did; none backed out.

Then I've won bets claiming the primers would back out with extremely reduced loads with .308 Win and .30-06 cases.

With primed only handgun cases, it often happens. I think this is oft times carried over to rifle cases thinking they all do the same thing.

Run your own tests and see what happens with primed only bottleneck cases. Check case headspace before and after firing, too. You may be surprised at the readings.

Regarding:

So, if you are going to load 5.56 ammunition to 65,000 psia, you might as well glue the primer in, crimp it in, staple or duct tape it in, because the darn thing is going to blow.

I don't think anything will blow. In fact, you may not see any signs of pressure at all. SAAMI specs for .223 Rem proof loads is 74,500 psi; normal's 56,000 psi. I've shot 7.62 NATO proof loads having the same pressure and most folks looking at the fired cases say they're a bit warm, but still just fine and safe. No commercial or military rifle "blows" testing proof loads that's been shipped to consumers. They all are tested to such pressures for a few shots.

There's a popular belief amongst some folks that any pressure over spec'd max will blow up the firearm and they often believe that firearms are tested with incremental loadings until they explode then the max safe load is a couple grains below that level.
 
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Dittos on Bart B's comment.

Crimping primers are primarily for belt fed weapons as the bolts overtravel much further to the rear and when they reverse direction the bolt velocity is really up there when it contacts the next round to feed it in.
On the M14/M1 designs the bolt barely passes the base of the next case coming up to feed and it has just started to move when the next round is picked up and there is really no need for crimping. Case in point the Match Ammo for M1/M4 was not crimped nor was the hundreds of millions of rounds of 308 Fed Match was not crimped.
When ball ammo is run on the gov't loading lines no one knows where it will wind up, in belts or mags so it is all crimped in.

On the other hand they know the Match Ammo is not destined for the belting line.

The RED that is seen is lacquer for waterproofing the primer. The mouths have waterproofing as well as they are tested for waterproofness during STANAG acceptance when it is submerged under water with primers up looking for bubbles to appear around the edge of the primers.
Now you can use Red nail polish to accomplish this but personally I use the clear. It is applied by dobbing around the primer and then drawing the case head across newspaper to remove the excess from the case head and leave the seal in the groove around the primer intact.

Hope that clears some things up.
 
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I've won bets on that issue. I bet the primer would stay flush with several rimless bottleneck cartridge cases from .222 Rem to .358 Win; all with original

Only ones I have done were rubber/wax bullet loads powered by primers in revolvers they can back out. Also why the flash hole in the Speer training cases are so large.
 
I have not tried backing primers out by firing them without gunpowder in the case. But this is an example of the primers backing out with a mild load. These cases were fired in a SAKO 30-06, the load was 150 gr SMK, 47.5 grains IMR 4895. Both the chamber and the cases were dry, and the pressure was insufficient to stretch the case to the bolt face. If the case had been lubricated it would have slide to the bolt face reseating the primer flush, and if pressures were high enough, given a dry case and chamber, the side walls would have stretched, reseating the primer.

150Sierra47-1.jpg

150Sierra47.jpg


These are AMU 600 yard loads that I picked up at Camp Perry. The primer pockets are hugely expanded and on some of these, I could shake the primer out by tapping the case head on a flat surface. When pressures are so insanely high that primer pockets expand this much, crimping the primers might be the only thing preventing the primers from coming out in the weapon.

AMULongRangeBrassDSCN6661.jpg

These are Marine Corp 600 yard loads I picked up same day at Camp Perry. The primer pockets are also enlarged. The crimp is about the only thing keeping the primer in the pocket. If the primer gets loose in an AR15 mechanism, it can jam the bolt carrier, prevent the bolt from closing, or drop down into the lower. I have talked with a number of people who have had a primer or primer anvil fall to the bottom of their lower and interfere with trigger mechanism such that the hammer won't stay back. It happened to me and I had to remove my rifle from the firing line and knock out the trigger and hammer pins, because these parts had to be removed before I could reach the anvil on the bottom.

USMCLongRangeBrassDSCN6667.jpg

Anyone is free to load their cartridges as hot as they want. I am not going to knowingly load my cartridges to insanely high pressures levels that require crimped in or glued in primers as makeshift techniques to prevent primer blowout. And if you want to pluck primers out of your lower, just copy Army Stupid pressure levels.
 
...AR15...fall to the bottom of their lower and interfere with trigger mechanism such that the hammer won't stay back.

I have also seen one get under the front of the trigger so it couldn't be pulled.
 
Primers "will" back out with under presser loads or with a simple primer, but only if there is enough excess headspace to allow the primer to move.

If the case head is tight to the bolt face there is no where for the primer to go, if there is a "space" then it will back out.
 
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