Reloading mishap - all primers detonated (pics to follow)

[chrisf8657]

THANK GOD you are OK!
This is why I load 1 at a time in an RCBS Universal Hand Primer Loader (1 at a time, with safety gate).

 

[GJgo]

Parks, yes, the primer got stuck & crushed on its way forward. I tried to muscle it and boom. Have to find a link to the thread..

 

[ChefJeff1]

After popping some primers on a Lee Loader, I make it a rule to keep a lid on my powder hopper and keep the lid on the powder container and primers off the table. I couldn't imagine the powder hopper igniting indoors!

 

[kingmt]

I have wondered about the primers dropping down the tube all at the same time. I haven't loaded the first primer in my LNL AP yet but it just seems wrong.

 

[Ledhore]

These (federal) primers are specifically not recommended by Lee, plus - oh the irony - I asked for CCI and they had none so I said "OK I'll try Federal, as long as they don't blow up" and the salesman said "no, of course they won't". That was about an hour ago.

From that 1000pcs CCI primer box I used up I had MANY that went in sideways - were pressed flat on a case where the old primer wasn't popped out properly... etc. NO ISSUES.
Federal however seems to be a tad larger than CCI because many cases seem to cut off a tiny burr on some primers.
Plus all the issues with CCI were related to either powder grains stuck in the index wheel, or some speck of dirt stuck in the priming mechanism, or that bar that keeps the case inside the index wheel not being tightened enough.
I figured all that out on my first 1000 rounds I loaded, so this time the press was tuned right and ready to continue loading. The only difference this time were the primers.
Also, the cases that never had any issues with primer size - Geco cases, fired twice, hence not tight primer holes at all - suddenly started "shaving off" tiny bits of metal from the Federal primer cups.
In other words, Federal is sized wrong and it is MUCH more sensitive than CCI.


In a 5-stage progressive press? You know how unique every stroke is? Some primers go out with a "click", some don't. Some cases go trough the sizing die easy - some don't. Some new primers get pushed in with a "click"... about 1 in 4. Plus two other dies (powder-trough-expander and seasting-and-crimping dies) to make other various resistance on every stroke.
So no, unless you use a separate primer you won't feel every primer being pushed in as easy as you describe it.

gotta disagree here - even though there are multiple things going on with a progressive, the priming stroke is a unique step that can be felt every time, and generally happens by itself on a separate, usually forward, stroke. I run a progressive and can feel every primer as it seats.

 

[rodregier]

Read a past article on Lee testing of primers.

The Federal primers tend to cascade trigger if you manage to set one of them off, the CCI and Win don't.

The same propensities also caused Federal to use larger packaging for their primers than do CCI and Win.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think I accidentally set off a primer once. Loading 9mm with a Lee whacker long ago. Got a little cavalier probably.
I always have used CCI.. got 4k Federal recently though as CCI was not available there then. Pray for me.. lol
Be a little more careful. As many here have said, verify that the primer is sitting right and go the heck easy.

 

[ranger335v]

"I don't think to many of us actually realize just how explosive primers are."

Surely we all know how explosive primers are. Seems some think they are like sticks of dynamite but, individually they don't amount to much. Collectively they do, as all explosive compounds do. Lee doesn't 'recommend' the use of Federal primers simply because Federal wouldn't give Dick Lee a batch to try and Dick wouldn't buy them. So, since he had none to try, he would not recommend them - that's all there was to it.

I don't recommend anything to anyone but I can say I've loaded thousands of Federal primers, including a lot done with a Lee Autoprime and one Lee press, over the last 47 years, all without event. I did crush and set off a couple of Remingtons and a few CCI's on a single stage press when I first started reloading but that was due to my ignorance of what I was doing; that was MY fault, not the primers fault. Thus, I wonder about the true cause of such 'accidents' by others - is it really the primers or tools fault or ..... ?

I do know that no normal static charge is going to set off a primer; the metal cup and anvil assures that the pellet won't take the spark hit. Static builds up on insulators, metal can conduct/dissapate a static charge but conductors cannot build static. Setting a primer off with static would require a low grade bolt of lightening!

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Seems some think they are like sticks of dynamite but, individually they don't amount to much..

Long ago, I did something very stupid with a shotgun primer. When it went off it was about four inches from my hand. Came half close to blasting my pinky clean off.

 

[Blue68f100]

kingmt,

I have wondered about the primers dropping down the tube all at the same time. I haven't loaded the first primer in my LNL AP yet but it just seems wrong.

I have been using the LNL-AP press primer system for over 4 yrs now. As long as you have the sled pickup adj correctly there is no problem. The primers are only moving down 1 primer thickness, with the only weight being the primers them self and follower rod. The problem is when one is out of adj and someone tries to force the sled. This is the only way to put a side load on the primer feed system. The spring that does the feeding is self limiting. As with any thing related to reloading if it's not right DON'T force it. I have taken a file to the bottom front edge of the sleds so debre does not prevent the sled from going forward. A can of air helps to keep it clean. I have used several 1000's of the Fed SP too without any issues. I have never set a primer off in the press since I have owned it, 25k+ rounds.

 

[kingmt]

Long ago, I did something very stupid with a shotgun primer. When it went off it was about four inches from my hand. Came half close to blasting my pinky clean off.

Please explain.

 

[malpais]

Wow, didn't expect the thread to get so long. As a general message: I accept and evaluate everyone's suggestions, but we all know everyone does everything differently, as for example some people like to figuratively speaking dip their Glocks in oil, while the really effective lubricating procedure that not just prolongs the weapon's life but increases its reliability only takes about 3 drops of oil in strategic locations, and demands the full understanding of exactly what happens and how. I think this is valid here as well, because progressives are complex machines. I started off with one, so my learning curve is very steep.

Maybe I'm missing something...

Does Lee include the Explosion Deflector with the press now? Or is it a $5 accessory for those who simply don't like primer chain reactions.

If I was Lee, I would offer the durn thing free to anyone who could offer minimal proof that they owned one of the troublesome presses.

After a bit of looking at the press and observing the damage I concluded this: what "went off flying" was of course the entire plastic primer system and the anvils of the primers, since all primers point "upwards" as they are in the tray.
Here's a picture of the press with an arrow showing the primer tray:

Maybe a bit difficult to see here, but the tray is tilted at around 45 degrees upwards and towards the press.
This actually prevented me from having to dig out the primer anvils out of my face, but my point is that if there is any kind of blast protection then it would have to cover the entire priming system to be completely safe.
This makes me wonder if the Lee blast shield is more of a liability waiver than an effective device to prevent serious damage and/or accident. At any rate from my unfortunate experience the system by itself as it is now will "direct" the blast up at an angle not pointing at the reloader, so Lee actually does have a safer design in that sense.
By the way I have looked and found no injury to myself, so I was so to speak "safe" when this happened, but too close for comfort anyway.

I can fell the primers seating on my load master. If you are filling a pop as the primers seat then you need to swage the primer pockets. I swage all new to me brass. I find Speer pockets are still tight.

You need to go back to the basics & pay more attention. Learn each step until you have it perfected. Not that you won't make a mistake here & there but if you crush them often you need to make a change.

I don't know if its the caliber (9mm para) that I am loading, or just me, or your particular sensitivity that makes you say that, but I do not agree at all.
As I wrote, on the positive stroke 7 things happen almost simultaneously: de-priming, sizing, priming, throat expansion, powder filling, bullet seating and crimping. Some primers make a popping sound when de-primed followed by a "pinnnnnng" sound of the de-priming pin, some don't. Some cases are easely sized (and 9mm being conical this is very true) and some don't, all depending on the chamber size they were fired in and brass thickness, as well as surface friction between case and die. Some primer pockets are primed with a "pop", though I experience this very rarely, and some are gently pushed in in complete silence. As I wrote I use a mish-mash of brass so hence the results.
A primer being crushed or pushed into a tight pocket just offers so minute amount of resistance compared to anything else that its negligible and that's exactly what happened when this Federal primer went off.
If we were speaking of a single-stage press, or other calibre, or a press using same exact brand of brass for every cartridge I would certainly agree that the process would be much more consistent and predictable.

I can't speak to how the Load Master does without a die in station 2 because I always size in that station.

Then you may be doing so contrary to the instructions in the manual. The sizing die, at least for 9x19 when it is adjusted has to hit the indexing plate when it's at the top of the positive stroke. I did set it just so, with the small adjustment of backing off maybe 1/8 or 1/16 of a turn so the die does not make physical contact with the indexing wheel but goes still as far as it can go down on the case.
If you put the sizing die in station 2 you will have a problem; you firstly lose the possibility to de-prime in that station and secondly your die will never go as far down as it can in station 1 because of the small plastic lever in the priming system that every rotating case triggers once it passes it. If you set it as low as in station 1 you will crush that lever and you will not be able to prime.
My idea is to have an empty (minus the de-priming pin) sizing die in station 2 positioned above this plastic lever, but still as far down as possible so that it centers the case as much as it can. Since for 9x19 the sizing die is conical it won't be 100% centered after station 1, but it will be better than nothing at all.

Another reason why I remain content with my single stage press.

That is probably best for very consistent and precise ammo, but I am into practical shooting and use around 200-500 rounds every time I am at the range, and that feels too little to me to keep improving my skills, hence the progressive press. I will get a single stage - but that will be exclusively for match grade rifle ammo where such diligence pays off and is more or less necessary.

LOOK at each primer as it sits in the ram before you seat it into the case.

That may turn out to be not reloading, but a full time job for me if I am to do that for every primer and reload as much as I do.
Jokes aside, there is no issue with the Lee priming system. It puts the primer where it should be, and only on the top of the stroke it actually pushes it out of it's small hole and up into the primer pocket of the case. The big issue I am having (may post pics of it someday) are loose powder grains - I use N330 that has stick powder, that is quite sticky and like to hang on even to dry and clean surfaces - that get stuck inside the rim of the indexing wheel. This prevents the brass from being where it should be and thus the primers get misaligned. I will however solve this by cleaning the rims of the indexing wheel perhaps every 50 rounds, and get a die to center the cases better.

After popping some primers on a Lee Loader, I make it a rule to keep a lid on my powder hopper and keep the lid on the powder container and primers off the table. I couldn't imagine the powder hopper igniting indoors!

I always keep the lid on my hopper on, no matter if it's empty or not.
For future reloading I will a) not put more than 100 primers in the priming tray at a time and b) have the hopper filled to no more than a third, to minimize whatever could go wrong if it goes wrong.

got 4k Federal recently though as CCI was not available there then. Pray for me.. lol
Be a little more careful. As many here have said, verify that the primer is sitting right and go the heck easy.

Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. -G.W.Bush
Hope I quoted him right, he he. Nope, for me Federal is a no-no. Does not seem to matter if or how or what may go wrong, the fact that they all can go off is just... wrong and dangerous.
As I wrote the one primer that did go off and caused my mess was already physically separated from the rest by about 1/4" and the rest of the primers were behind this primer pin that pushes the primer upwards plus a plastic "lever" that ejects them one by one. Didn't matter... they all went off anyway.
So yes, a prayer for you, but for me not using them anymore is better.

 

[kingmt]

Blue
I was talking about dropping a full tube of primers down the other empty tube.

 

[fpgt72]

Get a CCI Rock Chucker. Could save your life.

It doesn't need an explosion deflector.

OR....RTFM....not the press'es fault, they knew it was an issue and documented it.

I know we all skim this stuff, and it could happen to anyone. I am very new at all of this stuff, and am going VERY slow when reloading. Threads like this are good for me...makes me stop and think....and double check everything.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.
Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. -G.W.Bush
Hope I quoted him right, he he. Nope, for me Federal is a no-no. Does not seem to matter if or how or what may go wrong, the fact that they all can go off is just... wrong and dangerous.
As I wrote the one primer that did go off and caused my mess was already physically separated from the rest by about 1/4" and the rest of the primers were behind this primer pin that pushes the primer upwards plus a plastic "lever" that ejects them one by one. Didn't matter... they all went off anyway.
So yes, a prayer for you, but for me not using them anymore is better.

I meant it more as a joke but I'll take all the goodwill any and all can muster.

 

[Samari Jack]

These (federal) primers are specifically not recommended by Lee, plus - oh the irony - I asked for CCI and they had none so I said "OK I'll try Federal, as long as they don't blow up" and the salesman said "no, of course they won't". That was about an hour ago.

From that 1000pcs CCI primer box I used up I had MANY that went in sideways - were pressed flat on a case where the old primer wasn't popped out properly... etc. NO ISSUES.
Federal however seems to be a tad larger than CCI because many cases seem to cut off a tiny burr on some primers.
Plus all the issues with CCI were related to either powder grains stuck in the index wheel, or some speck of dirt stuck in the priming mechanism, or that bar that keeps the case inside the index wheel not being tightened enough.
I figured all that out on my first 1000 rounds I loaded, so this time the press was tuned right and ready to continue loading. The only difference this time were the primers.
Also, the cases that never had any issues with primer size - Geco cases, fired twice, hence not tight primer holes at all - suddenly started "shaving off" tiny bits of metal from the Federal primer cups.
In other words, Federal is sized wrong and it is MUCH more sensitive than CCI.


In a 5-stage progressive press? You know how unique every stroke is? Some primers go out with a "click", some don't. Some cases go trough the sizing die easy - some don't. Some new primers get pushed in with a "click"... about 1 in 4. Plus two other dies (powder-trough-expander and seasting-and-crimping dies) to make other various resistance on every stroke.
So no, unless you use a separate primer you won't feel every primer being pushed in as easy as you describe it.

Just curious. Does Lee have both a large and a small primer set-up? When I first got my Dillon, the large primer set-up was installed. Crushed a few before I figured out I had the wrong one installed.

 

[kingmt]

malpais

You don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you take the time to learn your tools before you hurt yourself. Try running 1 round at a time all the way through. Study how everything works.

My setup is station 1 is universal decaping die, 2 sizing, 3 powder through, 4 bullet feeder seat & crimp. I don't use 5.

The cases move the primer slide in then the spike looking thing moves it back out. The die can & should contact the shell holder. You should also keep your hopper full. The last 1/3 is where you should fill it back up. You also need to start swageing your primer pockets.

 

[.338-06]

Just curious. Does Lee have both a large and a small primer set-up? When I first got my Dillon, the large primer set-up was installed. Crushed a few before I figured out I had the wrong one installed.

Yes, they do. But it seems just to be the primer 'chutes'.

Using the Load Master the cases are primed on the down stroke, while the Pro 1000 primes on the up stroke. You can feel the primer seating with the Pro 1000, but not on the Load Master.

I had to replace the parts that push the primers to be seated 'cause I buggered it up with a screw driver. I guess this isn't uncommon as Lee included an extra assembly with the press.

 

[TonyT]

When I was deciding to purchase a progressive press I decided against the Lee since they attributed the primer detonations to the primer manufacturer. I believe the problem with Lee progressive presses is inherent in their design. Instead I chose a Dillon 550 and have reloaded almost 100,000 Federal primers without issue.

 

[Certaindeaf]

What would Lee stand to gain given this stance? They sell reloading machines.
I've occasionally told people to "not do that" without a thought of any sort of gain or harm.

 

[malpais]

The cases move the primer slide in then the spike looking thing moves it back out.

I`ll look into that, the impression I always had is that a sizing die all the way down would inadvertently come into contact with that plastic arm.

 

[kingmt]

No. Take your time to learn your tools & how they work. Have you ever noticed how one mans favorite tool another man will call it junk & blame the tool for failing. One man took the time to learn the tool & how to use it correctly. The other man just doesn't know how to use it.

 

[malpais]

This reminds me of what I read about the Lee press in various reviews, that ranged from the best to the worst impressions of it being "junk".
What I found out is that it is very demanding, but no more demanding or dangerous than owning and operating a firearm. It's no iPad, but then again I have no expectations of everything being self-explanatory or being served to me on a plate either

 

[kingmt]

The press is far from junk & is easy to use. It just requires you to learn to use it.

I have read there is older primeing systems that were harder to use. If yours is all black you have the newest one.

 

[blarby]

If yours is all black you have the newest one.

Its all kinds of black and grey now....hard to tell