Wolf primers

[Quoheleth]

Over the weekend I loaded 100 .38 Specials and 150 9mm with Wolf SPP. Went to the range yesterday with the ammo.

All went well with my .38s (Model 15, all stock gun). But when I got to the 9mm, I probably had 6 or 7 that failed to fire on first strike. Of those, most lit off after a second strike, one went off after a 3rd strike, and at least one (it may have been 2) didn't fire at all. I was shooting a CZ85 and a SR9c, both 100% stock. I thought the striker-fired gun may not be hitting the primer hard enough, but after switching to the CZ, I had a couple problems in both guns.

My primer handling during reloading is simple: slit the tape off the end of the package, slide the plastic tray 1/2 way out of the cardboard and dump 50 primers into my Lee primer tray, then push the plastic tray out of the cardboard and dump the remaining 50 into the lee tray. Shake to get them oriented properly and use a knife point to flip the stubborn ones over. Close the Lee tray and get to it. I did have a few primers that were harder to seat than others and had to give them a 2nd bump on the turret press to seat fully.

Lot number for these are 5-10 with a red dot (don't know if that matters).

Was this part of that bad batch that was around earlier this year? I got a great price on the primers, so it's not the economics that bothers me. I don't like the idea of bad primers. A 3-4% failure rate is still less than Remington .22s but it's not great.

Q

 

[ole farmerbuck]

Hmmm, gotta watch this.

 

[mr.trooper]

It surprises me that the CZ would have problems setting of hard primers, being a military gun from a Warsaw pact nation.

If it bothers you, or you like the Wolf primers for some reason, a heavier hammer spring would be an easy fix.

 

[Walkalong]

I have not tried any of my Wolf primers yet. Many have reported them being a bit harder to seat. As you know, the vast majority of the time when primers don't go off they are not seated fully, or the hammer strike is too light (weak/cut/underpowered springs).

My first thought would be that they were not seated well enough. I would load some more being very careful about seating the primers, double check all of them, and see how they do.

 

[floydster]

Again, seat the primers with authority.

 

[Historian]

+1 for what Walkalong said. Wolf primers are slightly oversized and must be seated with a more than firm hand. I found this out while shooting my M&P.40 with my first batch of Wolfs. About 10% failed to fire even after a couple of cycles. The problem went away after I came to this forum and someone wrote about them being oversized. Haven't had a problem since. Every one has gone boom. On another note, they're great if your primer pockets are getting a little loose.

Historian

 

[A and O]

The LP Wolf Primers are the only ones that I noticed any difference in seating in a major way. As one of the above posters stated "Seat Them With Authority"

 

[Quoheleth]

I had read that about Wolf and I made sure they were authoritatively (?) seated. All were seated flush. Some actually had a bit of a dimple where the ram had pushed against them, slightly off center [for some reason, my Lee #19 shell holder was letting some cases slip a little bit or even pop out when using additional authority.] I was giving my Lee turret a work-out on those primers.

FWIW, I had no real problems seating with .38s but did have some with 9mms and of various headstamp - and then others with the same headstamp seated just fine. Go figure!

The FTF in the CZ surprised me, too. Springs were factory-replaced last spring, so it's not a weak spring issue. I'm not a Wolf fan-boy, but got them for a heckuva price - 7000 primers for $120 - after seeing Winchester for $38+tax at the LGS.

Q

 

[JimKirk]

They should seat .003 to .005 below flush ....according to all that I ever read.

I have not tried any Wolf myself, but also understand that they are harder to get fully seated.

Jimmy K

 

[sansone]

wolf primers are slightly harder. I also would expect CZ to not have an issue with them. some Zastava pistols also strke primers a little harder than western pistols. My buddy loaded up hundreds of nine's with rifle primers, his Zastava gobbled them up fine. His Sig and Walther didn't always fire them off first strike

 

[Hagen442]

Within my Shooting Group of 7 there have been mixed results with different Firearrms.

 

[Walkalong]

All were seated flush

They should seat .003 to .005 below flush ..

Yep, below flush.

 

[Quoheleth]

Hmmm...not sure if my Lee is going to get me below flush...

I'm using the same ram (turret press) and small primer holder for all my ammo. Why am I having a problem with 9mm but not .38?

Q

 

[mokin]

I use a Lee Auto Primer. I've only loaded 200 rounds with Wolf SP primers and don't remember any problems. They've been used in 9mm and .40 S&W. About "seating with authority", I did break the lever shortly after I began using Wolf primers. But in all fairness to Lee that was after at least 4000 rounds.

 

[BrokenWheel]

I thought I was the only only one with some problems with wolf!

Out of about 500 so far 8 of them failed to fire in a HK P7 (even double striking) but was able to fire in a P30. My lot # was 13-10. I just figured the primer head sometimes ran thick and thats why the primers where cheap. Not a big deal for plinking ammo.

 

[floydster]

mokin,
Have you been lubing your Lee auto prime?
After priming over 25,000 cases with Wolf/Tula primers mine are still going strong-------even tho I do have an extra handle just in case

 

[dagger dog]

If you use a hand primer, you can tell when the primer bottoms out in the primer pocket.

Wolf primers tend to be a little harder to seat, but I have never had to use more than one thumb on my Lee, or one hand on my RCBS.

Could be the the case length (? short?) on the 9MM causing the problem.

!50 -200 rounds is very do -able, with a hand unit and it helps to get the "feel" of the primer seating, which is a lot harder on a press.

 

[RustyFN]

Hmmm...not sure if my Lee is going to get me below flush...

I'm using the same ram (turret press) and small primer holder for all my ammo. Why am I having a problem with 9mm but not .38?

Q

I get them below flush using a Lee classic turret with the safety prime. A couple of friends and I have shot thousands with no problems but I have heard of some problems after we bought ours. I shoot mostly 9mm with no problems.

 

[tactikel]

agree with above, I bought 8k wolf during the primer shortage and soon learned to clean primer pockets and to seat them with authority. since then no FTF at all (had 1-2% fail on first strike, all fired on second strike).

 

[straitnate14]

No problems here and I use them for all my 45ACP and .223. I have shot well over 3000 of them through my XD45 with no problems. My buddy did have some problems with them in his 44-40 but his guns are all set up for cowboy action and I blame his trigger jobs. I let him shoot a couple of my 45acp for his cowboy action wild bunch shoot and he was very happy with the rounds I loaded for him. I then told him that it was loaded with the wolf primers he sold to me for next to nothing because he had 13-14 out of a 100 not work.

 

[LiveLife]

Why am I having a problem with 9mm but not .38?

Quoheleth, even for new once-fired brass, I find that different headstamp cases vary in primer pocket dimensions/tightness (probably due to differing manufacturing process and case materials). An example is Sellier & Bellot brass which I think has the tightest primer pockets, regardless of caliber. Even after 40-50+ reloadings, the primer pockets are still very tight and I can always tell whether I am press or hand priming (some are so tight that I usually think I hit a military crimped case).

The Wolf/TulAmmo LP bronze/brass primer cups are indeed slightly larger (I say <0.001") and I can definitely tell when compared to Winchester bronze primer cups whether I am press or hand priming. As to Wolf/PMC SP bronze/brass primer cups, they were measured to be the same size as Winchester SP.

With Wolf LP primers, some in my shooting group complained of misfires, but when we investigated at their press/hand priming tool, they were stopping when they felt equivalent "feel" as Winchester/CCI/Magtech primers they were used to (in most cases, the seated primers turned out to be flush with the case bottom or slightly above when felt by finger tips). We chambered some of these "above bottom" cases in the pistol (no powder/bullet) and they failed to fire on the first strike (they fired on subsequent strikes). When I told them about the larger primer cup dimension and pushed harder on the press ram lever and hand priming tool lever so the primer cups were seated slightly below flush (0.004"), they did not experience another primer misfire.

Note: If your primer pockets are dirty (full of crud) and you are progressive press priming, you will have hard time seating the primers below flush. When I cleaned out some of the dirty primer pockets and hand primed the cases, presto, primers were easily seated below flush. This is another reason why I hand prime all of my match loads as it gives me a chance to do a quick glance at the primer pockets to see if they need cleaning.

BTW, my experience has been with bronze/brass cupped primers. Many posted that some lots of nickel/silver cupped Wolf SP primers had harder cups than normal and truly did experience failure to ignite, even after multiple primer strikes.

I have used Winchester primers exclusively for the past 15 years, but was forced to buy Wolf LP and PMC SP last year during the primer shortage. Although I try to buy USA made whenever possible, I do have to admit that Wolf/TulAmmo LP primer performance has been on par with Winchester LP. FYI, PMC SP primer does burn a little "less hotter" than Winchester SP and require 0.2-0.3 gr more powder charge of W231/HP38 for me, but it has been very consistent.

 

[JimKirk]

By them firing on the second strike... means that the first strike is seating the primer.

The Forster Co-Ax press priming system is about as fail safe as it gets for seating primers to the .004 to .005 below flush , primer manufacturers specify that primers be seated below flush. Read the section about the Co-Ax priming system in the link below... about middle of the page ... it has good reading about how to seat primers even if you have other equipment.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=24822

Jimmy K

 

[Slamfire]

If you notice, your Model 10, a design that dates from 1900, has enough power to adequately light off your primers. But your new fangled auto does not.

I believe that your 9mm has inadequate power in the firing mechanism to ignite your primers.

This weak ignition system phenomena, either exhibited through weak main springs or poor design is the main reason why American primers are so sensitive. It is a race to the bottom, poorly maintained or poor ignition system designs cause misfires, reloaders/shooters complain, ammunition manufacturers react by making primers so sensitive that a sneeze will set them off, which allows firearm manufactures make less powerful ignition systems because now they have more sensitive primers.

This article by Mark Humphreville explains the “stupid is as stupid does” attitude in the firearms industry.

IT DON’T GO BANG: FIRES, HANGFIRES, MISFIRES AND SHORT ORDER COOKS IN JERSEY By Mark Humphreville

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/08/primers-it-dont-go-bang.html

You would think the CZ, which looks to be based on a military design, would ignite all the primers. Maybe the factory changed the springs or the geometry for the American Market.