reloading powder without proper data?

[gibson_es]

im new to reloading. very new. dont even have everything yet.. i do have "modern reloading" by Richard Lee, i got it last year around this time when i had planned to start reloading, but couldnt find any powder anywere, so i never got around to getting anything else. im re-reading it now, as i dont remember a lot from reading it a year ago. but i do remember having this question even then...

using this book, another book, and the loading data online for whatever powder im looking at, seems information is still limited. and right now, im looking at a powder i have heard a few good things about, and its got a good price right now. but its not in my book, and there online data is not too informative. this is the ETR7 by expansion industries.

what does one do when they cant find the exact data for a powder?

for example, my local shop has power pistol. thats all i can find close by, i looked at the data for that (thought the cost is twice that of the ETR7 right now) after hazmat for the ETR7, its still cheaper but about $20 for 4 pounds (power pistol will be about $110 after tax, ETR7 $89)

my book gives me load data for 230gr jacketed, but not 230 gr lead (45ACP),

on the same note, it shows nothing for 9mm for copper plated or Jacketed.

There site only shows info for "speer" bullets. i have used lead in the past and have no issues doing so. and its cheaper. just range practice is all i need it for.

 

[Sam1911]

As a general rule, any charge listed for a jacketed bullet will work just fine for a cast lead bullet of the same weight. Cast lead is slipperier than copper jacket material and so pressures are lower.

Never heard of that powder, though. Don't know anything about it.


DO NOT use load data from another powder and assume they're anything alike. Pistol charge weights can be VERY different between different kinds of pistol powder.

what does one do when they cant find the exact data for a powder?

The safe answer is always, "don't use that powder for that purpose." If you can't find a manufacturer's published load for X powder with Y bullet, often that's because they've found that not to be a suitable combination.

But using a lead bullet in place of a jacketed one should give you no serious issues.

 

[MtnCreek]

Never heard of that powder or 'manufacturer'. My guess is it's surplus powder repackaged and given a tactical name (Expansion Target Rich 7).

 

[Sam1911]

Oh...so, the manufacturer's site lists a chart for that:

http://www.expansion-industries.com/ETR7-PISTOL-POWDER-p/etr7.htm

230 gr. lead round nose is the last line there. 4.5 gr. to 5.4 gr., looks like.

 

[gibson_es]

thanks.... if i go with the power pistol, just because more info is avail for it, are there other sources for data? i hear alliance puts speer only just to push that bullet. so not having 9mm info (which, again, i am reading this powder works best in, actually) in my book is a bummer.... maybe there is a book with better data?

 

[MtnCreek]

Lyman manual is a good one and they do their own testing. The Lee manual reprints data provided by the manufacturers.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

thanks.... if i go with the power pistol, just because more info is avail for it, are there other sources for data? i hear alliance puts speer only just to push that bullet. so not having 9mm info (which, again, i am reading this powder works best in, actually) in my book is a bummer.... maybe there is a book with better data?

Lyman and Ideal before that have been making very good manuals for a VERY long time. The current Lyman manual, the 49th edition is a must have IMO. If you are going to load cast bullets the Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet Handbook is also a must IMO. The cast bullet handbook isn't just a reprint of the data in the 49th edition full manual, it adds a lot of loads from bullets molds other than those made by Lyman. (for the first time ever)

 

[tyeo098]

Did you check the mfgs site?

 

[ATLDave]

One of many reasons you should own more than one reloading manual. I keep Speer, Hornady, Lyman, and Nosler on the bench. Plus the online information from the powder manufacturers.

As others have said, the Lee stuff appears to be derivative of other sources. I love my Lee press and dies, but haven't relied on their apparently second-hand data.

 

[bangswitch]

Their website mentions that it (ETR7) loads similarly to Titegroup; however, that doesn't mean you can use Titegroup data to work up your loads. If you get this powder, I strongly recommend backing off 10-12% from the listed beginning weights and working up to either your desired velocities, or until you start seeing pressure signs.

Definitely pick up a couple of good reloading manuals. Hornady 9th ed, Lyman, Speer, Nosler, and still compare them to the loads you find on the powder mfg's websites, like Hodgdon .

 

[RussellC]

Did you check the mfgs site?

No OAL info? Odd.

Russellc

 

[tyeo098]

Seat to magazine and plunk test is what I do...

 

[Jlr2267]

Get the Power Pistol. It can be used in many handgun cartridges and data is everywhere. Just verify your recipe with at least 2 sources, go slow and be safe.

 

[joem1945]

I have many reloading books including Lee. I find the Lee is more difficult to use than Lyman which is my goto book. If you want to try a unkown powder wait until you are more experienced and have a good chrnograph to use as a guide before you get in trouble.

 

[GLOOB]

For lead, one rule of thumb is to take 10% or so off of jacketed data and start there.

For a semiauto handgun, in particular, you can't use the data interchangeably. Even if you stay under the maximum peak pressure, you can easily overload a cast bullet by using jacketed data to where the gun can't keep up with the slide velocity/extraction. IOW, when you do finally find some good cast pistol data, you will find that the max loads are well under SAAMI limits... yet they are still MAX loads for other reasons that you probably do not want to experience, firsthand.

In general, plated bullets should be loaded with something between cast and jacketed data. Exactly where depends on the exact bullets in question. They all aren't built the same.

 

[Sam1911]

Even if you stay under the maximum peak pressure, you can easily overload a cast bullet by using jacketed data to where the gun can't keep up with the slide velocity/extraction.

I've re-read that sentence about five times and can't for the life of me figure out what that means.


And I'll present it as a challenge to explain how a 230 gr. jacketed .45ACP load data would be unsafe if you swap in a 230 gr. cast lead bullet.

 

[GLOOB]

And I'll present it as a challenge to explain how a 230 gr. jacketed .45ACP load data would be unsafe if you swap in a 230 gr. cast lead bullet.

In 45ACP, I have found you will usually be quite ok, going all the way to jacketed data. But this has more to do with the guns than the bullets. Most 45ACP guns can handle hot loads. You can even lighten the slide and still be ok. (This is one reason why 1911's don't run well with a silencer. They already have a good slide mass to start with, for the caliber.)

Where you can run into a problem is where the gun doesn't have an extra margin for error. Take, for instance, a G27, which runs on the ragged edge with max data. If you substitute a cast bullet with an equivalent maximum charge, you get higher velocity. Higher than maximum jacketed bullet velocity means higher than normal slide speed. This means more recoil and can also cause failures to extract the spent case.

Blowbacks and revolvers are a different story. Locked breech handguns are recoil-operated, and thus are limited to a maximum recoil they can handle.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, you get higher velocity of the bullet. But the slide and case still weigh exactly the same. I'd need a very solid explanation to convince me that they would not travel at 99%-101% of exactly the same rate as with the jacketed slug.

 

[GLOOB]

Ok, you get higher velocity of the bullet.

= you will get a correspondingly higher velocity of the slide and higher felt recoil. Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't care, and I won't try to convince you on that point.

Edit: Wait, I thought of something which I feel like no one can refuse to accept.

Take your 230 grain cast bullet and work down to a load that just barely cycles your locked breech semiauto handgun. Then substitute a jacketed bullet at the same OAL and see what happens. Slide doesn't cycle. Same charge, same bullet weight, but the damn slide doesn't cycle. Try it and see for yourself.

 

[murf]

friction and newtons third law

as sam1911 said, the lead bullet travels faster, therefore, has more momentum (force). newtons third law says there is an equal momentum (and, therefore, velocity) of the bullet forward and of the slide/barrel back.

so, i think what gloob is saying is that bullet velocity, and not max pressure, determines slide velocity (in a lock breach system).

so, maybe powder charges for lead bullets are lower to keep bullet velocity the same as jacketed bullets (again in a lock breach system).

murf

 

[GLOOB]

Yeah, that's what I was saying.



****************************
I was just thinking about this. And I'll be damned if a straight blowback mechanism wouldn't be affected in exactly the same way, for exactly the same reason. The two different mechanisms are almost identical in the most important ways.

So I have to take this back:

Blowbacks and revolvers are a different story. Locked breech handguns are recoil-operated, and thus are limited to a maximum recoil they can handle.

A blowback firearm is also recoil-operated, and the same applies, only with different ramifications.
****************************
edit: no, lol. I take that part back. I had a brain fart.

 

[Sam1911]

Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't care, and I won't try to convince you on that point.

Well, I'd like to learn if you know something I don't.

That's outside of my experience.

Take your 230 grain cast bullet and work down to a load that just barely cycles your locked breech semiauto handgun. Then substitute a jacketed bullet at the same OAL and see what happens. Slide doesn't cycle. Same charge, same bullet weight, but the damn slide doesn't cycle. Try it and see for yourself.

Really? I have loaded some very light bullseye loads way back in the day, but never did this kind of testing with them. Does this happen? A 230 gr. bullet exits the bore and gets to the target, but the slide doesn't cycle?

as sam1911 said, the lead bullet travels faster, therefore, has more momentum (force). newtons third law says there is an equal momentum (and, therefore, velocity) of the bullet forward and of the slide/barrel back.

so, i think what gloob is saying is that bullet velocity, and not max pressure, determines slide velocity (in a lock breach system).

so, maybe powder charges for lead bullets are lower to keep bullet velocity the same as jacketed bullets (again in a lock breach system).

I'm curious to try and get an idea of just how fine a difference this has to be?

First off, I'll re-state what I said before: Published load data isn't going to get you into these fringe/extreme regions where slides don't cycle or some damage might occur. I believe I shall stand by that statement. Looking over load data this morning I'm seeing charges for .45ACP listed within 0.1-0.2 gr. of each other switching between 230 gr. lead and 230 gr. FMJ. Now there's lots of different and differing load data in the world, so some manufacturers' books list surprisingly different loads than others', but I'm not used to seeing significantly different charge weights published -- until you get up to magnum or other fast and high-pressure loads where most folks are getting beyond their comfort zone with cast bullets anyway.

So, assuming that this effect really happens, how big is the "danger" (or malfunction) zone between cast lead and jacketed, out at the top and bottom edges of the charge weight range, and do you suggest that any published loads actually lap into those areas of trouble?

 

[TimSr]

Since you are new to reloading, I'd skip the little known powders, get a good manual, (Lyman is about the best for cast bullet data) and pick a popular load, with a commonly used powder, and a commonly used bullet out of your manual until you learn what you are doing. While you are new to it, I would stick with one manual as a main source, and then use a 2nd source such as the mfg website as a "sanity check' to see if its in the same ballpark.

Once you learn the ropes, you will be better prepared to cross reference unlisted bullet types, different cast options, and other components.

 

[TimSr]

As for cast vs jacketed, data, this is why I recommend Lyman's for cast data. You'll notice the loads are high higher for cast than others list for "lead".

Jacketed pistol bullets (except special mag bullets) are usually soft lead, with a copper jacket. They are typically the standard for load data.

Plated bullets are similar, but the "jacket" is like a film coating and not a copper "tubing". Because friction is similar, they use starting jacketed data, but cannot be loaded to the upper end, as the "jacket" coating will not stay intact.

Soft, cold swaged, lead bullets when loaded to jacketed data will often "strip" when threaded through rifling, leaving a bunch of lead in the barrel. Nearly all mfg's assume you are using these as "lead bullets". They list charges for these bullets much lower than jacketed, because of "leading" from soft lead bullets, and not because of pressure concerns.

Lyman's sells all kinds of casting equipment, so their data is based their recommended casting alloy which is a much harder "lead". These bullets can easily use jacketed data, and far exceed that data, as there is less friction, which means less pressure, and as this harder bullet will not deform as easily from the pressure behind it.

As for semi-autos, the slide is operated by back pressure from the chamber Explosion. With the same charge, and the same weight bullet, the bullet with least friction or drag will exit the barrel faster. The faster the bullets exits and relieves that pressure, the less force backwards to move the slide. The more friction and drag on the bullet, the longer the pressure is contained, and the more it forces the slide backwards. Plug your barrel, and it would probably blow the slide off.

I don't recommend cast bullets for semi-autos with a brinell rating of less than 16, with my preferred being 18. Those cold swaged, soft lead bullets are for revolvers that you can load lightly, and not have to worry about creating enough back pressure to work an action.

 

[GLOOB]

Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't care, and I won't try to convince you on that point.

Well, I'd like to learn if you know something I don't.

Murf already explained it. And it's been discussed before, ad infinitum. Conservation of momentum, and all.

If you don't believe it, just please try my experiment. If you're using a stock spring in your gun, you won't have a squib. I promise.

One clue: if lead bullets could shoot faster with no penalty to recoil, then why isn't anyone making high performance ammo with higher velocity and lower recoil by using special lubes/coatings/jackets or something? This would be a billion dollar industry just for the government contracts.