Reloading Rifle Rounds on a Progressive Press Question

[John C]

I've been reloading pistol rounds on Dillon progressive presses (Square Deal and 550) for about 8 years. Now, I'm ready to step to loading rifle rounds for the first time.

I've been watching some videos on youtube, and some questions came up.

I assumed that I would have to case prep before starting on the progressive press. I figured I'd full length size and trim the brass before putting the case on the press. This would negate station 1 except for priming. However, in the videos I saw, the reloaders just popped their cases on the press for resizing. Are these guys not trimming their cases? Is there enough leverage in the press to full-length resize rifle cases?

Thanks,

-John

 

[Canuck-IL]

It'll FL size cases but you need to be sure they're properly lubed.
If they're running full progressive starting w fired cases, it would seem they're skipping the trimming ... you could get away with it if you were sure of the max length any of the cases would grow to BUT, obviously not something you could do repeatedly - they are going to get too long after a couple of FL sizings. If you're using a properly set-up X-die and the batch of brass is all consistent, you could also avoid trimming.

If you were neck sizing only for use in a bolt gun, it might work for more cycles before eventually needing a FL sizing.

I reload mostly for semi-autos and, out of habit, follow the same procedures for the bolt guns as well...

Decap
Tumble clean (SS media in water/detergent)
Lube and FL resize
Quick tumble to remove lube (or use mineral spirits on a rag)
Trim (a couple of calibers I've been using an X-die for resizing and haven't needed to trim again - should work on a progressive)
Hand prime (because I'm anal about properly seated primers in semi-autos)
I store them in bulk at this point - when it's time to shoot, I use the progressive to drop powder and seat the bullet. I don't crimp any rifle rounds.

/Bryan

 

[cfullgraf]

I have been dabbling with loading 223 Remington, AR blasting ammunition on my progressive.

I prefer to clean all brass between resizing and reloading, one of my idiosyncrasies. I prep brass shortly after shooting so the batches are small and processed quickly.

For 223 Remington, I am gearing up to resize on the progressive, decapping in station one, lubricating in station two and resizing in station three. I suppose if all goes well, I may add a Dillon trimmer.

For loading, I prime off press with a hand primer, then charge the case and seat the bullet on the press. I generally wait until I have at least 500 pieces of prepared brass ready to load. Priming could be done on the press but the press mounted primer system and I could not come to terms.

To get the powder measure to stabilize in its charge weights thrown, i have added a second powder baffle to the powder measure, 90 degrees and about 1.5" above the lower one.

I still load all other rifle cartridges on a single stage press. I just don't load the volume of rifle rounds to justify the cost of progressive equipment and time. I thought about loading 30-06 for the M1 on the the progressive but have put that project on hold.

 

[30Cal]

I load my match 308 loads (semi-auto) on the dillon. I size and do case prep first; trim every other time. I do pretty big batches and usually keep a 5gal bucket full of preppped and primed brass. The 600yd loads I charge separately (or if I'm doing a small batch just to save on setup time), but I typically just pull the crank for the short range stuff.

 

[beatledog7]

My pickiness with rifle loading is why I don't own a progressive press. I guess I'm like that with handgun loading, too.

I can see where handgun guys who shoot high volume can't do without one.

 

[John C]

I'm surprised that people are priming off-press when loading on progressives. I was thinking that I'd tumble, resize, and trim off-press. I'd use station one as a priming only operation; there would be no need to further resize.

Can you trim brass before sizing on a press? It seems if you trimmed to minimum length, the brass is unlikely to grow to over max in the resizing process. You'd have to check to make sure, of course.

-John

 

[dmazur]

If they're running full progressive starting w fired cases, it would seem they're skipping the trimming.

True. However, the 550B (along with other progressives that don't auto index) makes it relatively easy to do a "break out operation" to trim after depriming/resizing/repriming.

It also allows you to do things like

1. Clean off excess lube
2. Verify head to shoulder distance with a gauge (like L.E. Wilson pattern)
3. Sort into two bins, trim v. don't trim, so you don't have to trim every case

Then, when you resume, you just index before pulling the handle, so you don't run the case into the resizing die again. And deprime it again...

Yes, it is possible to set up a separate tool head with just the resizing die, but there isn't really any reason to do this.

One note - the fail-safe return rod gets its full stroke during the primer seating push on the handle. You still need to do this when using Stations 2-4, even though there is nothing happening at Station 1.

To answer your last question

Can you trim brass before sizing on a press?

yes, of course. However, then you have to get your dry lube system working just right, or the lube winds up in your powder-thru expander die. And, if you don't really trust "trim before resize" and are going to check every case with a gauge, you are going to be doing this with assembled rounds.

You have to ask yourself, "What if I find one out of spec?" (On either head to shoulder or case length). Bullet puller time.

I'd rather verify everything before I charge and seat...

 

[30Cal]

Trim after sizing; the cases grow when you size them.

I prime separately because it saves time--don't have to load primer tubes.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I know it's not exactly what you are asking but why not just get an inexpensive single stage press for loading rifle ammo? A Cast Iron Lee press will cost you only $105 and all you will need it the press since you are already reloading and have all the other equipment. If you don't want to spend $105 there are single stage presses available for as little as $50. Progressive presses are great but everything has it's limitations. You can use the SS press for processing the brass and use your progressive for speeding things up a bit when charging the powder and seating the bullets.

Just a thought, didn't mean to go off topic...

 

[snuffy]

Here's my 650 set up for .223;







I run them all the way through from fired to loaded. I determined that a case under max length would not go over max trim length after FL sizing. Cases were all checked before loading, if they're close to max trim length, they get set aside to be sized, then trimmed. The cases were spray lubed with RCBS or FA spray lube. Some of it gets inside the neck so there's no issue with expander drag. I tumble them (loaded), to remove the lube in new corn cob for about 20 minutes.

That's the Hornady case activated powder die with an older Hornady powder measure. Running WC-844 ball powder, it doesn't vary at all in charge weight.

 

[John C]

Archangel;

Your advice is sound. I already have a single stage press (Rock Chucker). I agree that the process is much easier on single stage. I'm just wondering how the process is moved to a progressive press. It seems like it's not a very easy fit to load fully progressively.

I also might be overestimating the amount of trimming that needs to be done of rifle brass. I really don't have enough experience to know how often you'd need to trim brass. I guess people load a case a couple of times before needed to trim. Maybe you could just sort of "know" when your cases need it.

I think in order to really get the progressive process down, you'd have to have a 6 or 8 stage press, with a station dedicated to a Dillon trim die. That would be the ultimate setup.

One final question. I've heard that Lee collet dies dramatically reduce the case stretching on rifle brass. Would this work on a progressive press?

Thanks,

-John

 

[dbarnhart]

I typically pre-process (lube, decap, size, trim) my brass in batches long before loading them. Right now I have four batches of 1000 223 cases all preprocessed. Then when it is time to turn a batch into 1000 rands of ammunition it's just priming, charging, and seat/crimp.

The setup of my Hornady LnL-AP looks like this:

1. RCBS Lube die (decaps the case)
2. -
3. Dillon RT1200 Trimmer (sizes the case)
4. -
5. RCBS Sizing die (to expand deburr the case mouth)

Then the second pass looks like this:

1. -
1.5 seat the primer
2. -
3. Powder
4. Powder Cop
5. Seat/Crimp

If your cases do not need trimmed then it can be done in a single pass. On my Hornady LnL-AP it looks like this:
1. Decap, size
1.5 set new primer
2. empty
3. Powder
4. Powder Cop
5. Seat/crimp

You should be able to get 2-3 firings (maybe more) out of a case before it needs trimmed.

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

Unless you are using a rifle with an extremely tight chamber there is no reason that you can't trim first. Unless the brass is brand new, or range pick ups, which will get sized first before the first trim, and prep, I, will trim the cases even before cleaning, then after cleaning, lube, then load. Then tumble again to clean the lube off. Shoot, and repeat.

 

[Uniquedot]

When i load large quantities of rifle ammo i load them on my loadmaster, but i resize the cases most often on a single stage or turret and then i trim the brass and clean the primer pockets. I then turn to the progressive for priming, flaring, charging, seating and crimping. It's very fast compared to fooling with a turret or especially a ss press. I seldom load enough rifle ammo in a single session now so i usually just load them on the turret.

 

[codefour]

Many answers to your ??

I was in the same boat when I started really loading rifle ammunition. Once I got started blasting my M4 and Saiga .223 and my M1A, I knew I was going to have to find a new way to load rifle ammo faster and more efficiently.

Granted this is what I consider blasting ammo. It is not precision ammo. My hunting and target/match loads are loaded on a single stage and trickle my exact charges.

I always deprime all my cases and clean the primer pockets. They then get a good 12 to 24 hour tumble (I like clean brass).

I size on my progressive press too. I put a RCBS lube die in station one and size in station two. It is faster than putting them in a single stage and removing them one at a time. Just slide a case into the shell plate and pull the handle. My RCBS Pro 2000 auto indexes and the sized cases fall out into the completed rounds bin. I will eventually add a Dillon 1200 trimmer to eliminate seperate trimming. Now, I trim them on a manual trimmer (sucks). I place the sized, trimmed and cleaned cases in storage. I have 5 or 6 gallons worth of prepped .223 and .308.

Loading for blasting ammo is set up like this, station:

1. decapper to remove left over corn cob and clear flash hole.
2. prime on the press
3. powder drop
4. bullet seating
5. crimp

For some reason I can not get stick powder such as IMR 4895 or Varget to meter extremely well in my Uniflow. I sometimes get +/- 0.2 grains variance with stick powder. That is why I trickle match and hunting cartridges.

Just my $0.02 worth....

 

[Hondo 60]

I've found I can reload 223 FC cases without trimming.
Once fired (by me) they're measuring 1.749-1.750 (even after FL resizing)

But those are the only cases that I've found like that.

 

[John C]

dbarnhart and Codefour;

Thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of the RCBS lube die. Now I'm seeing how this could all work out.

There is still two parts to the loading process; case prep and loading. The trick seems to be to have two separate tool heads and run the brass through the press twice.

I'm also seeing how the Dillon RT1200 and the RCBS lube die is a killer combination.

The collective knowledge on this forum is fantastic.

-John

 

[ArchAngelCD]

One final question. I've heard that Lee collet dies dramatically reduce the case stretching on rifle brass. Would this work on a progressive press?

A Collet die will not stretch the brass at all. If you are using the ammo in the same bolt action rifle there is no reason not to use a neck sizing die and speed things up. If you are shooting a semi-auto or shooting more than one rifle that won't work well. (with multiple bolt guns you could keep your brass segregated)

 

[cfullgraf]

I'm surprised that people are priming off-press when loading on progressives. I was thinking that I'd tumble, resize, and trim off-press. I'd use station one as a priming only operation; there would be no need to further resize.

-John

I prime off the progressive because I cannot get the reliability from the priming system that I expect. One failure in 1000 is way to high for my liking and my results were worse than that.

If I could inspect every primer after seating, then I would probably use the press mounted priming system and sort out the bugs. As I cannot inspect the primers, I am not willing to spend the effort and I dislike cleaning up powder spills and fixing mis-installed primers.

Besides, since I interrupt the process by tumbling, the cases are already off the press for hand priming. I can hand prime 100 cases in about the same time as it takes to fill a primer tube.

Besides the Hornady L-N-L, I have similar issues with the priming system on the Dillon SDB. I hand prime as well when using my Dillons.

Many folks are happy with the press mounted priming systems. I am in the minority when it comes to priming while progressive reloading. My choice.

 

[30Cal]

Our juniors loaded all their ammo (buckets full of match 223) on a Dillon 550 with the 1200 trimmer. I don't recall how well it worked out (the trimmer that is) for them. There are two different power trimmers that stand way above the rest and the Dillon isn't one of them.

 

[Walkalong]

I run all the cases through my LNL using only the sizer. Then I tumble them to remove the lube, trim, deburr and chamfer, tumble again, prime, and then run them through the LNL again to load.

 

[Maj Dad]

I make sure the cases are within length specs (by miking/trimming) before I run them through the progressive process (I use a Dillon 550). If I have a batch of brass than has not been processed, it gets FL or SB (depending) sized (either using the Dillon or one of my single stage presses), tumble cleaned, then trimmed & chamfered. After that, my experience is that you do not need to trim but every so often based on the rifle & load.

Think I'll go do some now...

 

[One78Shovel]

I was at the same point as you earlier this year. I use my Dillon 550B to load 223 and 30-06 by the following method.

-Tumble

- Place rounds in loading block case down

-Lube

-Deprime and size same stroke on Station 1.

-Tumble to remove lube- (yes, I tumble twice)

-Trim/bebur/chamfer neck

- Primer pocket prep/remove crimp if required

-Back to station one and prime. I cycle the handle to grab primer then load case and seat

-Place brass back in loading block neck down. Verifies all primed plus helps when you start adding powder to keep unloaded cases seperated

- I use a powder dispenser (Hornady L-N-L) to load cases. It meters better than the Dillon powder measure. Especially IMR-4064 I use for Garand load.

- Lastly, I use Station 3 on the press to seat bullet with no crimp.

-178S

 

[John C]

Thanks, 178 shovel. I'm seeing a trend of guys using Hornady powder measures on their Dillon presses when loading rifle rounds. Do Hornady measures meter better than Dillons just with stick rifle powders, or with other powders, too? Should I pick up a Hornady measure, or would an RCBS uniflow that I have work as well?

Thanks,

-John

 

[northark147]

The only rifle ammo I do with mine anymore is AR fodder. Before I got a single stage, I just removed the buttons from the Dillon and used it as a single stage except i didnt have to change my dies between steps. A 550 has the power to take on sizing 308 and 7.62x54 with no problem.

Now My AR stuff I size and de prime with the single stage, Swage the primer pockets with a Dillon 600 (unless I am absolutely sure I have no crimped primer pockets, and I am sure of that rarely so I swage it most of the time if it needs it or not), Trim them, Tumble them, and run them through the Dillon.

Station 1 is a Lee universal decap die to knock out any media that thinks it would like to hang out in the flash hole. Station 2 is the dillon powder measure (I am not sure why other people use other measures, at least for me the dillon is right on every time I have ever checked), Station 3 is an RCBS seater, and station 4 is a Lee FCD.

I have figured out the secret to the Dillon priming system for me is to set it up right for small primers and NEVER touch it again. I am considering getting a square deal to do my 45 ACP so I don't have to decap them on single stage and reprime with my hand tool. I don't foresee ever having anything else that I wish to load progressively that uses large primers. Of course I wouldn't gripe if I found a steal on a second 550 to be set up for Large and left alone.