Rem 788 and Stretched Cases

[planetmobius]

I've got a couple of Remington 788's one in 6mm and the other in 44 mag. While I am a prolific reloader, I can't say that I've accumulated enough fired brass from either rifle to process yet. That said, I've read in several places that the 788 has a tendency to stretch the brass upon firing. I'm aware that this will happen in any rifle but seem to find a disproportionate number of refferences to this associated with the 788. Why is this and what is it about the 788?

 

[slickracer]

It´s becauce the 788 has rear locking lugs versus most bolt action rifles that have front locking lugs.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I have had a 788 in 6mm Remington since 1973 and have been reloading the cases since. I have not noticed any difference in resizing the cases than I have in any of the other guns I own. (over 30, let us theorize) The previously stated opinion is not of high quality in my opinion. The many bogus "flaws" purportedly contained by the 788 are either based in jealousy or are just advertising BS to make customers buy the Remington 700 series instead of the far cheaper and far superior 788 series. Explain to me how the 788 bolt is inferior. I went to a 2 year school to be a tool and die maker, spent 7 years in the trade and have yet to see or hear a rational explanation of how multiple lugs at the rear of the bolt can be "weaker" than two at the front.

 

[Reloadron]

This thread addresses the problem. One consensus is as mentioned the rear locking lug design but I suggest you read the thread.

The only way to know if this effects your rifle(s) and by how much is to use a good case gauge and measure some of your spent cases to see just how much they grow. You could also maybe rent a set of headspace gauges and check the chamber(s). So while there is much mention of this problem you really need to find out if it effects your rifle(s).

Ron

 

[788Ham]

I have a .223 rifle I've owned for 20 years, I bought it used, so no idea how many rounds down range. I've never had any problems resizing cases, some of which I've personally reloaded 7 and 8 times, as was mentioned earlier, BS ! I load mine at reasonable velocities, no warp speed here.

 

[planetmobius]

Steel Horse Rider and 788 Ham, your credentials and experience have me sold on the BS theory. I just couldn't figure out why this would be true. But I kept hearing it. Even Hawkes mentions it on his website.

 

[rsrocket1]

I have a .308 version that I've had since new back in the late 70's. When I started reloading, I've been neck sizing most of the time and occasionally bumping the shoulder back only after about 3 reloads. No problems here and the brass seems to last almost forever.

 

[Dr T]

.My only observation (since I neck size the brass from my 6 mm model 788) is that the last time I got within 2 gr of powder for a load Ken Waters listed as MAXIMUM for a Model 700, I got a perforated case (yes, the gas venting works fairly well, but there was an impressive amount of smoke) and I had to pound the bolt open.

Thus, I have considered the design to be much weaker than a front locking lug design. But, on the plus side, it is a real tack driver.

 

[Lj1941]

I have never had a problem with my Model 788/7MM08 in 30+ years of loading for it. I however do not push the envelope on velocity or pressure.

 

[Captcurt]

Maybe, maybe not.

Although the rear locking lugs get most of the blame, improper resizing will do the same thing. If the shoulder is set back too far or the chamber is on the high end end of the SAMMI specs you will get stretched cases. I had a 220 swift in a 98 Mauser that gave me fits until I learned to just kiss the shoulder with the sizing die. Problem solved.

 

[CB900F]

Planet;

It depends on the gun. There are 9 rear locking lugs on the 788, rather small ones. The total area is there, but are all of them in perfect fit with their slots? As in the Brit SMLE's you can get bolt spring & the SMLE's are famous for it. Given proper attention to the reloading process & not trying for warp-9 will keep it down to a non-issue in my opinion.

And I do have a 788 and have reloaded for it for years.

900F

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

How much would a person expect the steel body of the bolt to compress? Or are the 9 locking lugs flexing a lot? I believe that metal fatigue would rear its ugly head in the form of hairline cracks or a separation of the tightest lug if CB900F's supposition is correct. I own three 788's and have not witnessed any type of metal fatigue or the signs thereof, I have also heard that the bolt handle is weak and prone to break but I have neither experienced nor witnessed such a failure. I don't know why the 788 gets such a bad rap, but, those of you who don't have one should probably not purchase any so those of us that appreciate them can scoop them all up.....

 

[788Ham]

Dr T,

I have to agree with you on this statement, I've never shot a more accurate rifle, I have a Remington 700 BDL in .22-250, it shoots lights out, but the 788 in .223 shoots even better. I was looking for a good shooter when I found this one, quit looking!

 

[243winxb]

The 6mm Rem with a working pressure of 65,000 PSI will be hard on brass, if loaded to maximum. Same as any other rifle, is my guess. http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf

 

[Bush Pilot]

I own several varmint rifles made by various companies. My favorite by far is a beat up 788 in .223, I couldn't even venture a guess as to how many rounds it's fired, several thousand to say the least. I've never had any issues with loading for this gun. BTW, the only sizing die I've ever used is the Lee collet.

 

[barnetmill]

My thoughts on the 788 is to not load maximum charges. If you get things too hot I thinki you will have problems With a chronograph My goal with a 788 in .308 is to send a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps from a 22-24 inch barrel. I am confident that the bolt lugs will not be set back and the gun will outlast me. Military brass will give different pressures and velocities than will commercial and one must be aware of such factors.

 

[Dr T]

My accurate 6 mm load is about 2 gr. below max under the old Nosler Solid Base SP bullet. It is a pity that Nosler stopped making it. However, I still have a box of the 85 gr solid bases squirreled away somewhere, waiting on the time that I decide to load up some whitetail loads for the 6 mm.

The accurate load: It will go less that 0.5" with a cheap scope group after group. Since I fired the last of these bullets, I have upgraded the optics and currently have it sighted in with factory ammo.

The 788 is the most accurate .24 caliber rifle I have, and both my Tikka and T/C Icon 243's are very accurate rifles (consistently less than .75" with any factory ammo I have run through them).

The only rifle I have that is more accurate is a Remington Model 7 with a very lightweight, 18.5" barrel, factory irons topped with a Burris Fullfield 2x7 in, I believe, Leopold rings, in 7-08. It is quite a bit below maximum (my estimated MV is 2500).

 

[TwoEyedJack]

I once bought a 788 in .222 planning on having it rechambered to .223. I bought a box of factory ammo to get a baseline. After putting 5 shots on paper that could all be covered with a dime, I got a set of .222 dies and abandoned plans for rechambering it. It is still the most accurate rifle I have ever owned.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Over the years, I've owned several Remington M788's.
One in .30/30, one in .243, another in .223.

As concerns the original posting re: case streching. Most of this was related to the fact that the 788 WAS an inexpensive rifle at the time. The thing I noticed with mine and others is that there was some gun to gun variation due to Remingtons manufacturing tolerances. Those that reputedly indicated case stretching were because they had head-spacing on the upper end of the acceptable tolerance range, so therefore ALLOWED the cases to expand to the chamber. Resizing the case to nominal dimensions of standard sizing dies did in fact stretch the cases.

Another element is that the bolt was two pieces and had to have enough tolerances to pivot. This added another element of tolerance stacking.

Hence, it isn't my opinion that the actions were as such "weaker", but rather that they were in fact "cheaper" actions..... exactly what they were meant to be.
Those who are underwhelmed by Remington's current quality control would have likewise been underwhelmed back in the '60's when I was coming of age... Nothing really new under the sun....

Whats interesting to me is how that Savage has taken their actions and refined them, and produced an equal to superior product with their excellent barrels. Somewhat like what Remington did with the M788.
BTW; all of mine were likewise accurate. However, the .223 had an appetite for rather HOT loads, considering the present data I see. Mine wanted no less than 27.0gr of BLC2 and a 55gr bullet. With a quality bullet (Hornady or Sierra) it would reliably shoot dime sized groups at 100yds... I killed my first two .22cf deer with that rifle one evening. Both were does head-shot at ~110yds... I was amazed at how easy it was.... But then, that rifle with a 24" bbl and a Redfield 3x-9x "Widefield" scope in Redfield base and rings approached 10lbs and trigger was a decent ~3.5lbs....

Ahhh, the "bad old days"... Couldn't afford more than 1 or 2 decent rifles. To get something different meant trading off something. Nowdays, I can just "plop" down the plastic and walk home with something new... The wife yawns and says, "I see you got you ANOTHER new toy....

 

[Dr T]

Good point on the manufacturing tolerances. It is especially interesting because the 788 is so "inherently" accurate in spite of, not because of, the tolerances.

One common feature of the 788, the T/C Icon, and the Tikka T3 is that they all have receivers that are semi-enclosed. It makes me wonder if the accuracy is due at least in part to that factor. Another factor that is most commonly cited is the very fast lock time of the rifle.

Since the 788 was last made, there have been enormous strides in computer-assisted manufacturing and machining techniques. We have all benefited--just note the accuracy advertized for rifles in the $300 to $400 range.

It makes me wonder just how accurate the 788 would be if the gun was built with the technology available today.

Let's see, if the group size would shrink 50% (like we have seen on many bolt guns), that would give me consistent .25" 5-shot groups from a $300 rifle...

One can always dream.

 

[CB900F]

DrT;

I haven't checked real recently, but in the not-too-distant past 788's weren't to be had for $300.00 anymore. If I ran across a good example at that price point I'd be surprised. Probably be a pretty beat-up gun. Not sayin' you might not be able to find one in some outta the way LGS on a secondary road, but I think the major players haven't been there for awhile.

I'd also be very surprised if Remmie thought they could build & market it at that price point these days.

900F

 

[Dr T]

I bought mine in about 1973 when I was a poor college student in package with a scope. I forget what it cost, but it was on sale and must not have been much.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I just took a look at one of the major on-line gun sales sites. Prices for 788's ranged from $425.00 to 800.00! I gotta admit that I regard the lower end of that range as being real world.

I mean, I love mine, but there's reality & then there's la-la-land. I wouldn't be surprised to find a dealer where I could buy a new model 70 Winchester for $800.00.

900F

 

[alsaqr]

i'm with Steel Horse Rider.

One of my Remington model 788 rifles is chambered for .22 Cheetah Mk I. The gun has stood up well to my hot handloads. There's not much case stretch because fired cases from that gun chamber in my Remington 700 that was chambered with the same reamer.

 

[Skyshot]

My 788 would stretch a new case, not significantly, I would call it more of a fireform. All cases after that are neck sized and have had no problems. I've had the rifle since 1975. Never loaded anything approaching a max load. I've always been happy with the dime size groups it prints.