Helmetcase
Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2005
- Messages
- 706
That's not really what surprises me (though when you consider that the middle forty percent I was talking about pays the other 35% of taxes, and that that represents about 120mil Americans, the fact THAT portion hasn't seen their taxes move up or down IS relevant). What surprises me is that even though 9 in 10 Americans pay the same taxes regardless of who is in office that they buy into the tax cutting rhetorical nonsense. For most of us, it really doesn't matter either way who's president--your taxes are gonna be the same until we spend a lot less.So why would you be surprised that not much has changed for the bottom 90% when the remaining 10% pay 65.84% of taxes and the bottom 50% pay almost nothing?
Funny, I asked you guys the same thing about Clinton--what specifically do you think he did wrong? So far, other than ajax's humorously incorrect assertion that we just bought them some nuclear weapons, I haven't heard much in response.By the way, regarding North Korea, I am interested in hearing what specific actions of the Bush administration diplomacy you regard as critical to what you perceive as failure
My specific actions re: things W should have done differently are that he abandoned a policy that, while not perfect, was achieving containment of the threat. Instead of continuing the Agreed Framework, he went to rhetorical guns on NK, started rattling an empty sabre at them, and disengaged completely.
I've been pretty clear here, and the record is clear--they've had the capabilities to work on nuclear materials since the Reagan administration. I'm not aware of any competent analysis that indicates they had to go from cold start to actual production in only 22 months. The only piece of the puzzle that changed was the production of fissile materials. Did you read the ISIS link I provided yet? They made it clear that, yes, in 2003 they started reprocessing the 8000 rods left over from before the Agreed Framework. They already had the materials in place, they simply started reprocessing them when our policy changed and become more openly hostile to their regime. Don't like it? Take it up with ISIS, but between them and you I know which one I find more credible on the subject.I am also curious that since the North Koreans acknowledged they were building nuclear weapons in October 2002, why you hold Bush responsible? Do you feel it reasonable to assume the North Koreans spun up the weapons program suspended under the Clinton administration from a cold start to actual production of nuclear weapons in 22 months?
They clearly were pursuing uranium as an end-around to the Agreed Framework (since they couldn't refine their plutonium under the agreement). Pakistan isn't a signatory to the NPT, so I'm not sure what we could have done about this short of attacking them--from the Pakistani POV, they're pursuing their own interest against India.Finally, how do you reconcile the 2002 admission by the North Koreans that they had traded advanced missile technology to Pakistan in exchange for enriched uranium around 1997 with your blame on this administration?
Don't conflate the two--the point is that they restarted their plutonium weaponization under the current administration, and nothing has been done about it. Yeah, they pursued some enriched uranium, but I believe one of the Arms Control Association links I posted discussed them doing this as an end-around on the Agreed Framework. EDIT: Yeah, they did mention it, and also that when we learned about their little deal with Pakistan, we slapped them with additional sanctions and told them to knock it off. Point for me. We knew about that as far back as 1997, but only in limited detail. Tricky little bastids, aren't they? More on this here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/nuke-uranium.htm
Seems they were buying centrifuges for refining the uranium itself, actually. Possibly material, but in any event, most likely the technology. Not sure why this means I can't point out that they restarted their plutonium efforts under W and not Clinton.
According to senior US officials, equipment Pakistan exported to North Korea may have included gas centrifuges used in creating weapons-grade uranium. The the shipment took place as part of a barter deal between the two countries in the late 1990s. In return, North Korea provided Pakistan with medium-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Russia and China are also said to have supplied equipment for the North Korean secret nuclear weapons program.
North Korea secretly supplied Libya with almost two tons of uranium in early 2001. Libya turned over a large quantity of uranium hexafluoride to the United States in early 2004, as part of an agreement to give up its nuclear program. US officials initially identified Pakistan as the likely source of the material. The uranium amounted to 1.7 metric tons (or 1.87 American tons) of uranium hexafluoride, the standard feed stock for centrifuges. The uranium was slightly enriched to about 1 percent U-235, above the 0.7 percent concentration in natural uranium. Libya could have enriched the urainium to make one small atomic bomb.
Pakistan's assistance to North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program may have continued through the summer of 2002. What was termed "highly suspicious shipping trade" indicated that Pakistan continued to trade nuclear technical knowledge, designs and possibly material in exchange for missile parts.
Evidence continued to accumulate, to the point that by August 2002 year administration officials felt the case was compelling enough to be grounds for cutting off talks aimed at improving relations with the isolated state. Prompted by North Korean attempts to acquire quantities of high-strength aluminum from a source in Russia, US officials decided to confront the North Koreans about the state of their program. Assistant Secretary of State James A, Kelly took the evidence to Pyongyang, the North Korean capital. After initially denying the program, the North Koreans admitted to developing the program in direct violation of the ’94 accord....
...As of late 2002 the uranium enrichment program was believed to be at least two years away from generating enough material for even a single weapon, that is, sometime during 2004. Some sources claimed at that time that North Korean may possess up to 2,000 to 3,000 centrifuges and was already enriching uranium. US intelligence agencies were reported to have evidence that North Korea obtained at least some gas centrifuges from Pakistan, and was trying to acquire large amounts of high-strength aluminum to make more gas centrifuges from Japan.