Remington 700 series history of a problem.

[Plank Road Farm]

I know most everybody knowledgeable about guns already know the latest scoop about this topic, but I don't and need someone to clarify it for me.

I saw yesterday a program discussing the Remington 700 series problem of accidentally firing when the safety was released with a round in the barrel.

It showed a woman who shot her son while unloading her gun when she took the safety off without touching the trigger.

The show also showed military test that filmed the malfunction.

They interviewed the man who designed the trigger mechanism. He was 98 yrs. old and lived in North Carolina. I don't know if he is still alive. But he warned Remington abut the possibility of a problem.

Remington has never publicly admitted to ever having the problem and settled out of court on several cases that sued them over this.

I think the program stated that in 1982 or there abouts that the problem was supposed to be fixed and later in the 1990's Remington came out with a newer trigger design that blocked the firing pin. But they still sell both designs today.

The program was an hour long and I wasn't able to see it though to the end.

So, is there a danger in purchasing a pre 1982 Rem 700 series?
And are the new guns safe today? Has anyone had a safety issue or heard of this kind of thing happening lately?

 

[kaferhaus]

They've been safe since the day they started making them. All those "stories" were just that... triggers had been tinkered with, guns were rusted pieces of junk or the folks plain lied.

No one was able to reproduce any of the malfunctions claimed. The "military" rifle had a trigger that had been adjusted.

Some of the folks in the show even refused to have the guns tested by competent authorities.... proof in and of itself that there's something fishy about their claims.

Remington has never lost a lawsuit involving a M700 trigger...

 

[Matt018]

IMHO there is no substitute for safe gun handling. The accident with her son would never happened if she was pointing it in a safe direction. I never rely on my safety.

 

[dirtymike1]

IMHO there is no substitute for safe gun handling. The accident with her son would never happened if she was pointing it in a safe direction. I never rely on my safety.

This.

As tragic as is may be, when things like this happen, it seems that people will try to blame everyone and everything around them to avoid being held responsible for their actions.

 

[sansone]

 

[jfdavis58]

I've got 7-700 actions spanning 45 years of manufacture. All work as well as the operator allows.

 

[Grizfire]

I have a modern day 700 and have never had a problem

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They've been safe since the day they started making them.

True! And since before they went into production, the designer has been telling Remington about the problem and continued to do so for several decades. Remington did not implement his suggested changes until 2007 and even then didn't do it on all models.

CNBC did a fairly good review of the problem, even interviewing the designer of the fire control system. Rem did their own tests in the 1970s and found that about 1% could be made to fire when the trigger was not being pulled - with factory new guns and not guns that had been tinkered with as claimed above. They have had literally thousands of complaints of the problem, but luckily only a few that resulted in injuries or death. Basically, the gun could discharge when taken off safety or when opening the bolt that still contained a live round.

Check the threads here on CNBC and Remington 700 and over on The Firing line.

 

[WNTFW]

Plank Road Farm,
I am mixed. I own a 700 as well as many people I know.
I did not watch much of the show but did see the part about the lady shooting her son through the trailer. I believe she should take part of the blame and is in denial. If you were alone would you still point the muzzle at your trailer while in wide open territory. I don't see how the boy moved from the back of a horse to where he ended up in such a short time. I can't put myself in their place and hope never to be able to. I do feel sorry for their loss. Nothing I think about the event makes a difference in the outcome or the pain they live with.
I have heard of some ND's (non 700's) and in none were the gun handler 100% innocent. Even some of the ones on here in the 700 threads are in part due to bad judgement. One event involved a young man getting hit in the head by a .22 while riding in a boat with the rifle. The boy made out very well but could have been much worse.
It does Rem700 owners no good to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the problem if there is one. The best possible result would be to know exactly what, if any the problem is. Being a 700 or Remington basher is not useful either as that is just as detrimental to finding the truth.
All I know for sure is I can't replicate the problem on mine, but it does have an aftermarket trigger at this time. The trigger is pretty light and should be treated accordingly. Screw around with the trigger on any gun and handle it without attention and odds of something bad happening increase.
I have pretty much gotten to the point where I won't chamber a live round in any gun without a real compelling reason.
I don't think the 700 requires any special handling moreso than any other bolt gun. That also goes for other action types and handguns.

Consider the source.

 

[unwise11]

I hunt with a man who uses one, it is adjusted to 2.5lbs. he has no issues, However a gentleman who I shoot with had his go off at the range the other week while he flipped off the safety.
depends. But I always make sure that my hunting partner has his muzzle away from me when on the trail..

 

[Average Joe]

If you do a Google search, you can find many different ways to adjust the trigger on a Remington 700, I would bet the house on the fact, that most of these guns that were involved in some kind of mishap , their triggers were tinkered with....Everybody likes a light trigger pull, but not everybody should be messing around with things they know little about.

 

[Plank Road Farm]

I'm not bashing anything.....

I'm just asking:

"I know most everybody knowledgeable about guns already know the latest scoop about this topic, but I don't and need someone to clarify it for me.
So, is there a danger in purchasing a pre 1982 Rem 700 series?
And are the new guns safe today? Has anyone had a safety issue or heard of this kind of thing happening lately?"

It sounds like there may still be some issues out there.

However a gentleman who I shoot with had his go off at the range the other week while he flipped off the safety.

My centerfire guns are three Savage 110's in .270, .308, 30-06 and a M96 Swede in 6.5x55mm.

I think the Rem 700 BDL and CDL guns are bueatiful, by the way!

Don't think I'm bashing for asking the questions.

Handling guns safely is of the upmost importance.
It helps to start with a safe & propertly designed weapon.

 

[rcmodel]

No one was able to reproduce any of the malfunctions claimed.

Except one of Remington's lawyers, who had one "snap" in court when he took the safety off to demonstrate to the judge it could not happen!

rc

 

[Bamajohn]

Didn't NBC do a report chevy trucks a few years ago about exploding gas tanks?. Didn't the film crew place a model rocket motor next to the gastank to make sure it caught fire. So how can you beleive a hatchet job by NBC. This is just so some LAWERS can whip up a class action suit agianst Remington.

 

[WNTFW]

Plank Road Farm,
I am not accusing you of bashing. If anything you are asking fairly out of true concern.
We have all seen bashers here as well a people that are so true to the brand neither can be considered impartial.
I just don't think you are going to get to the bottom of it here. Personally I would like to know also.
I have seen both sides of the AK / AR debate and 9mm / .45 debate and unfortunately I think this is another one of those things that will not be concluded definitely. I surely don't have an answer other than a lot of the info is suspect.

 

[Jackal1]

Here is Remington's Official response to the subject:

http://remington700.tv/pdf/Remington10-29-10.pdf

Except one of Remington's lawyers, who had one "snap" in court when he took the safety off to demonstrate to the judge it could not happen!

Where did you get this information? What was your source? Remington says the occurrences have never been duplicated by themselves or independent testers hired by the plaintiffs. Without providing a documented source (other than "CNBC said so") I am hesitant to believe it.

 

[twofifty]

Put up a M700 sticky?

The M700 trigger thing reminds me of the Firestone '500' tires of the
mid-70s.

Many model '500's would self-destruct at highway speeds, under certain conditions, even when properly installed and inflated. People lost control of their cars, some died.

As to the M700, seems to me there is enough smoke to put up a sticky suggesting that owners have their pre-Xmark trigger/safety function checked by a competent gunsmith. That's what I did with mine.

 

[crslght]

I have a model 700 in the 6mm caliber. I can personally say that the problem does exists and has happen with this rifle on three separate occassions. I called Remington to ask where the closest authorized repair center was located. When I explained what the problem was, I was asked to send the rifle back to Remington for their inspection and repair. The also sent me a prepaid shipping label and my understanding is that if the rifle hasn't been altered, the required repair would be made at no cost to me.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would buy one tomorrow. Is there a potential for a problem if the gun is real dirty or the trigger has been tinkered with? Sure. It was estimated that about 1% of the Model 700's have a potential problem. It was a waste of Remington's time to be interviewed on that show. They were already judged guilty by NBC.

Treat every gun as if it loaded at all times and control the muzzle direction. Would I place a loaded one inside my car? Probably not. But I might carry one loaded in a Jeep out in the country.

 

[Gambo42G]

remington

in my situation i had to try to remain unbiased my father works at the illion ny plant and ive always been partial to the 700 even moreso i guess after using one in iraq But i also think that its hard to remain unbiased when a news cindicate that is heavily biased pulls a micheal moore and attacks a retirement community, preys on grieving families and use sources who are digruntled or paid for thier opinions, using tactics like that of course they got a story that completely paints an accurate and reliable firearm as the devil. they are fine i have owned and shot them my whole life and they never went off till i set them off its a piece of equiptment that does what the operator tells it to if you wrap your car around a tree while messing with your raidio is it sonys fault because they made the toggle switch ???. so in my biased opinion CNBC are nothing more than scum suckin parasites

 

[22-rimfire]

If I take my Model 700 BDL out deer hunting, I almost always press the trigger when the gun is on safety to verify that it will likely not go off and that the safety works. Never had it go off unexpectedly. The truth is I do this with most every rifle when I am out in the woods as a safety check.

 

[jmr40]

I feel for the current Remington employees. They didn't make this mess, in fact since 2007 the redesigned trigger is fine.

But you cannot bury your head in the sand and pretend there is not a problem. I've personally seen an unmodified rifle in perfect condition drop the firing pin on an empty chamber when the safety was moved. NO FINGER WAS ON THE TRIGGER. I was trying to replicate the malfunction and the rifle did it 2-3 times in a row. That was probably 10 years ago and I've not been able to get the rifle to do it since.

Any older Remington could fire without touching the trigger at any time. The problem is actually quite rare, but real. Current Remington executives have been allowed to paint themselves into a corner by past management. To admit there is a problem would be financial suicide and the doors would have to be closed. Their only hope is to keep blaming the shooters and confuse juries.

Being struck by lightning is probably more common than Remington malfunctions. I've never been struck by lightning, but have seen it happen to others, and know it is real.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So, is there a danger in purchasing a pre 1982 Rem 700 series?

Yep. It is small percentage-wise, but the potential danger could be huge.

And are the new guns safe today? Has anyone had a safety issue or heard of this kind of thing happening lately?"

The new X Mark triggers are the ones where Walker's fix has been incorporated. If you buy one with the standard trigger, then the risk is still there.

Except one of Remington's lawyers, who had one "snap" in court when he took the safety off to demonstrate to the judge it could not happen!

Where did you get this information? What was your source?

It was in the CNBC program. The Rem expert was on the stand and testifying as to the safety of the gun. So this incident is a matter of public record. See 2:58 here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8RUimQpe0g&feature=related That happened in Glenn Collins suit against Remington.

Remington says the occurrences have never been duplicated by themselves or independent testers hired by the plaintiffs. Without providing a documented source (other than "CNBC said so") I am hesitant to believe it.

Remington's own study in the CNBC program also had the problem ...
http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf

and it was demonstrated some Portland, ME police and US Border Patrol officers that used the rifle. (see 8:13 and 8:48 here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MAcHvSPZZo)

 

[jmr40]

A lot of guys just want to blame the media. But in this case CNBC did an accurate balanced report of the situation. This is not the first time this problem has been profiled on TV. This has been reported in the news repeatedly over the years. This is the 2nd or 3rd full length story where one of the networks did a show on the Remington malfunction. I'm amazed at the number of shooters who have never heard of this problem. Any knowledgeable shooters that I know have known about the problem for at least 30 years.

A lot of guys use the exploding truck story to justify their feelings that the story was rigged. The problem with exploding trucks was very real as well. NBC did cheat to get an explosion on camera, but the fuel leak was not staged and was a real problem. Firestone tires were coming apart and killing people as well.

Any Remington bolt rifle made prior to 2007 could fire at any time when the safety is moved to the fire position. It may have not happened to you, YET. And it may never happen to you. But according to court documents over 10,000 complaints have been sent into Remington since the 1940's where others have had it happen to them.

 

[wally]

IMHO there is no substitute for safe gun handling. The accident with her son would never happened if she was pointing it in a safe direction. I never rely on my safety.

This on was a double failure, he'd gotten off the horse with his sister and walked around behind the trailer unbeknown to his mother -- round went through the walls and hit him. About as tragic as it can get

In all the video I saw of the problem, it showed the trigger pulled with the safety on, the safety then turned to fire and then the gun fired either when the safety switched to off or the bolt handle lifted.

If its a real problem, should be easy to duplicate with empty primed cases, and if your Model 700 trigger, has not been monkeyed with you'd have a large payday coming!

I didn't watch the whole show, seemed pretty biased to me, and I thought likely a commercial to have guns fall under the "consumer product safety commission" which has been tried before and at the state level has led to trigger/hammer locks & loaded chamber indicators -- a "safety feature" that has caused discharges, read up on the early Ruger MKIII problems.