Saw and handled one today at Bass Pro. Priced at $399. Sooo they are out. I'm not a 9mm fan but based on what I saw and handled , at that price I would give one a try if I were.
Remington R51
- Thread starter Ric
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Saw and handled one today at Bass Pro. Priced at $399. Sooo they are out. I'm not a 9mm fan but based on what I saw and handled , at that price I would give one a try if I were.
barnbwt
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"I have seen the same videos and grief about the Glock 42...there are a handful now in my area at the range and not one of them has ever missed a lick even with the ammunition touted to cause failures and caused all the skepticism about the reliability of the new Glock nobody wanted.
I'm not an R51 aficionado but I think those who are interested might wait until there are enough examples in the field to make a judgment as to whether or not it is a success or failure. It is way too soon to decide one way or the other."
I wouldn't say it's definitive, but as an "enlightened fanboy*" of the gun, I will say there is ample evidence to suggest there are common if not inherent/universal problems with the bolt camming and triggers (the rear sights, too, but that's a really stupid issue to crow about as loudly as people are)
From what I have gathered so far (which ain't much) the upward/downward camming of the bolt block by the slide can (often?) cause enough binding to make operating the slide or getting the action into battery difficult or impossible. Seems present on all guns, but in extremely widely varying and inconsistent amounts (suggests quality rather than a design issue). Other accounts suggest the disconnector may be contributing to the slide difficulties, which would jive with other accounts describing horrible trigger pulls in addition to slide troubles. So, we may have a combo of machining tolerance stackup or issues on the bolt block, and rough or out of spec FCG parts. Neither of those sounds out of line for a 400$ gun by Remington (sorry to say it, but these R51's were never going to be "nice" at that price point) with zero field experience or followup improvements.
That it's a new design makes its execution all the more difficult, and also seems to give lots of owners and e-net commenters ample excuse to throw up their hand and say "the gun's a POS" when it doesn't fulfill their every desire. I haven't read a single negative review where the writer/filmer even attempted to diagnose where/why any binding or roughness was occurring. I hate to sound like an old man in my 20's, but so many people are pathetically lazy/inept when it comes to troubleshooting anything for themselves, and see even a simple device like a pistol as an inscrutable black box.
I mentioned it on another thread, but the best review so far by a very wide margin is by a fellow of the name RyeOnHam on youtube, wherein he breaks down the R51 and Model 51 side by side, explains the difference and improvements, goes through the operation of the action, and appraises good and bad elements of the new design.
38min review; get some food and a beer
He ended up having to send his pistol back, but he says he is not disclosing why until Remington has an opportunity to satisfy him. Far cry from a sight-unseen "the gun sucks. pass" belch that echoes through the halls of GlockTalk. Whole lotta folks out there absolutely delighted they were "right" about the gun having issues, as if that accomplishes anything for anybody.
TCB
I'm not an R51 aficionado but I think those who are interested might wait until there are enough examples in the field to make a judgment as to whether or not it is a success or failure. It is way too soon to decide one way or the other."
I wouldn't say it's definitive, but as an "enlightened fanboy*" of the gun, I will say there is ample evidence to suggest there are common if not inherent/universal problems with the bolt camming and triggers (the rear sights, too, but that's a really stupid issue to crow about as loudly as people are)
From what I have gathered so far (which ain't much) the upward/downward camming of the bolt block by the slide can (often?) cause enough binding to make operating the slide or getting the action into battery difficult or impossible. Seems present on all guns, but in extremely widely varying and inconsistent amounts (suggests quality rather than a design issue). Other accounts suggest the disconnector may be contributing to the slide difficulties, which would jive with other accounts describing horrible trigger pulls in addition to slide troubles. So, we may have a combo of machining tolerance stackup or issues on the bolt block, and rough or out of spec FCG parts. Neither of those sounds out of line for a 400$ gun by Remington (sorry to say it, but these R51's were never going to be "nice" at that price point) with zero field experience or followup improvements.
That it's a new design makes its execution all the more difficult, and also seems to give lots of owners and e-net commenters ample excuse to throw up their hand and say "the gun's a POS" when it doesn't fulfill their every desire. I haven't read a single negative review where the writer/filmer even attempted to diagnose where/why any binding or roughness was occurring. I hate to sound like an old man in my 20's, but so many people are pathetically lazy/inept when it comes to troubleshooting anything for themselves, and see even a simple device like a pistol as an inscrutable black box.
I mentioned it on another thread, but the best review so far by a very wide margin is by a fellow of the name RyeOnHam on youtube, wherein he breaks down the R51 and Model 51 side by side, explains the difference and improvements, goes through the operation of the action, and appraises good and bad elements of the new design.
38min review; get some food and a beer
He ended up having to send his pistol back, but he says he is not disclosing why until Remington has an opportunity to satisfy him. Far cry from a sight-unseen "the gun sucks. pass" belch that echoes through the halls of GlockTalk. Whole lotta folks out there absolutely delighted they were "right" about the gun having issues, as if that accomplishes anything for anybody.
TCB
JohnnyBravo
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Healthy skepticism is a virtue. Unfortunately you don't get a lot of that in Internetland.
JB
JB
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Orion8472
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When I was watching the video I mentioned above, . . . he was saying [during his firing tests] that "it was getting harder to pull back". If that had been me, . . . I would have stopped to see why . . . rather than continue shooting. He did have several slightly out of battery conditions where the firing pin didn't contact the primer [though the hammer did fall], . . . but perhaps it could be that his specific pistol wasn't greased/lubed correctly.
RyeOnHam, DID state a legitimate issue with the steel part hitting the aluminum frame and how long that would last. Time will tell, I suppose.
RyeOnHam, DID state a legitimate issue with the steel part hitting the aluminum frame and how long that would last. Time will tell, I suppose.
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Give it time, it will work itself out. All new guns have problems, especially when you make a gun with a whole different design. You have to expect this, I don't know what all the fuss is about. I am sure the gun will work fine in a little while, just be patient, let them get the bugs out. Who buys the first one off the line, "I never would". You can almost be assured it will have to go back or get worked on before it's reliable.
It sounds like a perfect candidate for a fluff and buff, with a fine grit paper or a dremmel some ballistol, and a good lube. Then go shoot it.
Once it is nice and smooth so you can rack it easily, it should shoot just fine.
It sounds like a perfect candidate for a fluff and buff, with a fine grit paper or a dremmel some ballistol, and a good lube. Then go shoot it.
Once it is nice and smooth so you can rack it easily, it should shoot just fine.
Orion8472
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Well, . . . also, . . . the guy in the video was saying that the recoil was "potent" and "kind of uncomfortable to be honest". That seems to be opposite of what others have being saying about the recoil. Makes me wonder if there wasn't something wrong with the one he had.
JohnnyBravo
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I posted this on another forum but I thought I'd subject you guys to it also...
I finally got to hold one this morning at the local Gander Mountain (the salesman said they had several in stock). I didn't take it down but the fit and finish on the outside seemed pretty good except for the rear sight. I wasn't able to push it out of the dovetail but there was clearly a gap and I could see daylight through it. They need to adjust that cut. No excuse for it even on a budget pistol.
S&W had a similar issue with ill fitting sights when the made their initial run of S&W 1911's by the way.
I thought the trigger was very nice and as a revolver shooter the lack of a tactile reset doesn't bother me in the least.
I was surprised at how good the slide to frame fit was. This is very important in a fixed barrel gun. Much more so than in a tilting barrel design. In a tilting barrel design the most important factor in accuracy (besides the barrel itself) is the consistency of the lockup between slide and barrel.
Not so in a fixed barrel design. Slide to frame fit is much more important here and this particular R51 did not disappoint.
Edit: I wonder if some of the grittiness is because they tried to get hand fit tolerances without hand fitting anything?
When you rack the slide it is obvious there is a lot more going on than with a typical Browning design. There are a lot more surfaces catching, sliding, locking, and unlocking than most people are used to and since this motion is not straight rearwards it feels a little funky. Of course there are also going to be additional possibilities for binding as well, and I can see where proper lubrication and extended break-in of the gun might be necessary.
My overall take on the feel of the action is that it would probably smooth out and slick up with use, or end up galling and locking up.
The grip safety is nothing at all like the squeeze cocker on an H&K P7. That myth needs to be put to rest right now. I carry a P7 and I call B.S. on that one. What it does have is the tactile "click" that many people wish the trigger had, but the amount of force necessary to depress it is far less than any normal shooter's firing grip.
The gun felt really good in the hand and is easily thin enough for comfortable concealed carry.
From everything I've gathered so far, I think this is going to be one of those guns where if you get a good one it is going to be great and you'll end up being a fanboy. If you get a bad one, it's going to be really bad and may leave a sour taste in your mouth.
I'm going to get one, maybe even one from the first run, but I want to have several to fool with and check out so maybe I'll have a better chance of getting a good one. I just wish there were a way to know for sure before walking out of the door with it.
JB
I finally got to hold one this morning at the local Gander Mountain (the salesman said they had several in stock). I didn't take it down but the fit and finish on the outside seemed pretty good except for the rear sight. I wasn't able to push it out of the dovetail but there was clearly a gap and I could see daylight through it. They need to adjust that cut. No excuse for it even on a budget pistol.
S&W had a similar issue with ill fitting sights when the made their initial run of S&W 1911's by the way.
I thought the trigger was very nice and as a revolver shooter the lack of a tactile reset doesn't bother me in the least.
I was surprised at how good the slide to frame fit was. This is very important in a fixed barrel gun. Much more so than in a tilting barrel design. In a tilting barrel design the most important factor in accuracy (besides the barrel itself) is the consistency of the lockup between slide and barrel.
Not so in a fixed barrel design. Slide to frame fit is much more important here and this particular R51 did not disappoint.
Edit: I wonder if some of the grittiness is because they tried to get hand fit tolerances without hand fitting anything?
When you rack the slide it is obvious there is a lot more going on than with a typical Browning design. There are a lot more surfaces catching, sliding, locking, and unlocking than most people are used to and since this motion is not straight rearwards it feels a little funky. Of course there are also going to be additional possibilities for binding as well, and I can see where proper lubrication and extended break-in of the gun might be necessary.
My overall take on the feel of the action is that it would probably smooth out and slick up with use, or end up galling and locking up.
The grip safety is nothing at all like the squeeze cocker on an H&K P7. That myth needs to be put to rest right now. I carry a P7 and I call B.S. on that one. What it does have is the tactile "click" that many people wish the trigger had, but the amount of force necessary to depress it is far less than any normal shooter's firing grip.
The gun felt really good in the hand and is easily thin enough for comfortable concealed carry.
From everything I've gathered so far, I think this is going to be one of those guns where if you get a good one it is going to be great and you'll end up being a fanboy. If you get a bad one, it's going to be really bad and may leave a sour taste in your mouth.
I'm going to get one, maybe even one from the first run, but I want to have several to fool with and check out so maybe I'll have a better chance of getting a good one. I just wish there were a way to know for sure before walking out of the door with it.
JB
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1KPerDay
Member
Checked out a new Remington R51... issues abound
I happened upon a new R51 yesterday at Cabela's. Asked to check it out, intending to buy it, hoping that the issues I've read about elsewhere have been rectified. Asking price was $375.00.
Pros:
Looks good
Points good
Feels good in the hand
Rear sight was firmly fixed in place, contrary to some others' experiences with theirs
Cons:
Front sight hammered into a too-small dovetail by a drunken monkey with a rock, buggering up the slide dovetail
Slide feels like it was lubed with sand
MAJOR CATASTROPHIC ISSUE:
Said slide, lubed with sand, locks back without a magazine in the gun. First couple times Counter Guy racked the slide with magazine out, it went forward after some crunchy hesitation. Then it started locking back every time it was retracted. Counter guy said "some guns do that". I replied "I can't think of one"...
Counter guy also said he didn't like the SIG P226 SAO because he prefers to carry "cocked and locked."
In any case... the R51 seems to not be ready for prime time. I'm astonished that the factory let this particular pistol out the door.
I happened upon a new R51 yesterday at Cabela's. Asked to check it out, intending to buy it, hoping that the issues I've read about elsewhere have been rectified. Asking price was $375.00.
Pros:
Looks good
Points good
Feels good in the hand
Rear sight was firmly fixed in place, contrary to some others' experiences with theirs
Cons:
Front sight hammered into a too-small dovetail by a drunken monkey with a rock, buggering up the slide dovetail
Slide feels like it was lubed with sand
MAJOR CATASTROPHIC ISSUE:
Said slide, lubed with sand, locks back without a magazine in the gun. First couple times Counter Guy racked the slide with magazine out, it went forward after some crunchy hesitation. Then it started locking back every time it was retracted. Counter guy said "some guns do that". I replied "I can't think of one"...
Counter guy also said he didn't like the SIG P226 SAO because he prefers to carry "cocked and locked."
In any case... the R51 seems to not be ready for prime time. I'm astonished that the factory let this particular pistol out the door.
JohnnyBravo
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This is the problem RyeOnHam had with his R51. It's not an insignificant one either.
However, he is still waiting to hear back from Remington.
http://youtu.be/AvEAr9TJ51M
JB
However, he is still waiting to hear back from Remington.
http://youtu.be/AvEAr9TJ51M
JB
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barnbwt
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Sounds like the slide/frame trigger safety that prevents hammer drop out of battery is "sloppy" so the gun can be fired when the floating bolt block is back against its frame recess. Bad because the case is very poorly supported in such a situation, and because the action won't pick up the momentum needed to cycle if it starts out back against the locking recess.
Hopefully some disconnect or work is all that's needed to remedy the issue. I do wonder if it's actually a safety issue, since a bulged case/ primer, while for sure unnaceptable, is not the same as a rupture. I am interested in the "rough chamber" theory explaining both issues; 870 Express, anyone?
TCB
Hopefully some disconnect or work is all that's needed to remedy the issue. I do wonder if it's actually a safety issue, since a bulged case/ primer, while for sure unnaceptable, is not the same as a rupture. I am interested in the "rough chamber" theory explaining both issues; 870 Express, anyone?
TCB
JohnnyBravo
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There is another video with a picture of an R51 barrel and it actually looks like the rifling is peeling off. I know that's not what's happening, but that's the best way I can describe it.
Edit: It's about 3:30 into the video. It doesn't show the chamber but it does highlight some shoddy work.
http://youtu.be/Q9ZM3KeHiGg
JB
Gun Master
Member
R51 Troubles
It usually pays to "wait and see" with new models of cars and guns. I'm glad I waited before buying an R51.
Perhaps they'll "get the kinks worked out" in a couple of months (or years). It seems to have so much potential.
It usually pays to "wait and see" with new models of cars and guns. I'm glad I waited before buying an R51.
Perhaps they'll "get the kinks worked out" in a couple of months (or years). It seems to have so much potential.
lincen
Member
This is the first "new" gun that I have ever bought. I normally wait six months to a year. My interest was peaked when the Remington guy and gal both racked the slide with one and or two fingers. My father has bad arthritis and I was hoping he could benefit from the easy slide pull. That ain't happening!
The first pulling of the slide back is one of the hardest that I have ever seen. Once the gun is cocked the slide moves much easier. All that said, it shoots great and maybe it will break-in after more rounds.
The first pulling of the slide back is one of the hardest that I have ever seen. Once the gun is cocked the slide moves much easier. All that said, it shoots great and maybe it will break-in after more rounds.
barnbwt
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Lot of reports about the slide not quite going into battery. One other theory I had; extractor claw not jumping over the rim. Could cause the bolt to stop travelling forward a bit too soon (the exact amount of travel as the blowback portion, perhaps) resulting in the slide camming the bolt down while also trying to shove it forward the rest of the way; instant binding of the slide if you pull it back (pushing on the bolt face with it slightly out of battery would probably lock it completely)
TCB
TCB
When I first heard and read about this pistol, I was very tempted to run down to my LGS and put an order in for one, sight unseen. Very out of character for me. I am so very glad reason prevailed and now I find myself even losing interest in following the threads about them. And, yes, I have seen and examined one at my LGS.
Orion8472
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All of this has forced me to keep my Shield after all. Shame, too. I was really interested in this pistol when I first heard about it. And I HOPE they come up with a way to fix it soon because I would like to try one out. Perhaps at a range that rents them, at this point.
1KPerDay
Member
I checked out another one at Cabela's yesterday (different one than the first one I saw... the front sight wasn't as buggered up... hopefully they didn't sell the first one but rather returned it to the factory). This one also locked back without a mag in the gun... in fact no mag was in the pistol or in evidence... and upon dry firing (with permission) the slide locked shut so that neither I nor the counter guy could retract it.
I handed it back to him and said "I think I'll wait on that one." He replied, "I don't blame you."
I handed it back to him and said "I think I'll wait on that one." He replied, "I don't blame you."
lincen
Member
I have my R51 to the range twice and it has had some of the problems that others have mentioned but seems to be getting more reliable EXCEPT for the ease at which you pull the slide back. That was THE reason that I pre-ordered the gun in the first place. The Remington guy and gal could rack the slide with one finger. That ain't happening with my pistol. After it is cocked, yes but not that first pull. My father is a retired LEO with arthritis and I was counting on the easy slide....... not yet.
barnbwt
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*sigh* come ON Remington... :banghead:
At this point I think I'm just hoping this venture doesn't go the way of the Steyr GB; an excellent concept botched by some really stupid decisions relating to poor manufacture. Maybe Remington will hold on longer than they did and work to improve the product, maybe they'll drop it after a year; it's no longer certain in my mind.
FWIW, the number of hands-on negative reviews popping up seems to be accelerating; currently about 3:1 similar bad tidings on the average gun being sold, it seems.
Lincen,
Can you at least diagnose what the slide is hanging up on? It's gotta be either the breechblock, hammer, or disconnector. I'm doubting the hammer since easy-racking R51's do exist though in limited quantity, and all the guns probably have the same hammer and return spring weight.
TCB
At this point I think I'm just hoping this venture doesn't go the way of the Steyr GB; an excellent concept botched by some really stupid decisions relating to poor manufacture. Maybe Remington will hold on longer than they did and work to improve the product, maybe they'll drop it after a year; it's no longer certain in my mind.
FWIW, the number of hands-on negative reviews popping up seems to be accelerating; currently about 3:1 similar bad tidings on the average gun being sold, it seems.
Lincen,
Can you at least diagnose what the slide is hanging up on? It's gotta be either the breechblock, hammer, or disconnector. I'm doubting the hammer since easy-racking R51's do exist though in limited quantity, and all the guns probably have the same hammer and return spring weight.
TCB
Gun Master
Member
R51
Due to circumstances beyond our control, this thread has become "so boring".
It is evident that the R51 has very serious problems and/or defects, at this time. Until the engineers and production management resolve them, it is a "dead gun" for all intents and purposes.
I am not interested at present.
Due to circumstances beyond our control, this thread has become "so boring".
It is evident that the R51 has very serious problems and/or defects, at this time. Until the engineers and production management resolve them, it is a "dead gun" for all intents and purposes.
I am not interested at present.
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