Remington R51

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Go over to TTAG and go to there ratings of firearms. Drop down to the lowerest scoreing firearms and see what guns are there that you may own and have desided it totally reliable and worthy of owning.

Then decide if TTAG is even worth worry'n about as a source of reviews.
 
I just looked at the list. Oddly, they have a SP101 in both the 2 star rating and the 4 1/2 star rating.

They DID give 5 stars to the CZ P-09, . . . so I can't really fault them too much, . . . . but then, . . . of COURSE it is a 5 star gun.
 
I just looked at the list. Oddly, they have a SP101 in both the 2 star rating and the 4 1/2 star rating.

They DID give 5 stars to the CZ P-09, . . . so I can't really fault them too much, . . . . but then, . . . of COURSE it is a 5 star gun.

The two-star rating was for the 22LR model, which is neither a good range gun nor a good self-defense gun. The higher rating was for the .38 +P model if I recall correctly.
 
My gunsmith buddy got to fondle one at the Harrisburg Pa outdoor show last week and he called to tell me he was not impressed. But he is not easily impressed. He mentioned that the gun is so narrow at the grips that it is uncomfortable and he did not think much of the build quality. He also told me today that the MSRP is up to $450. I will wait to shoot one before I place my order.
9 fingers
 
On a side note, I just discovered the FN 5.7 has the same coil over barrel design of the R51 after watching Hikok45's video. Might be partly why the gun has so little recoil.
 
Well, I haven't SHOT it... But I'm intrigued. And I very much DO want one of the big old names in HUNTING guns to go all in to the concealed-carry/defensive market. That's just a huge win. If the gun has potential, I'm going to give it every chance.



Then again, I wasn't invited to their media day, so screw em!



:neener:
 
Remington Invite

Well, they didn't invite me either, but nor did the rest of 'em.

Please excuse these brief posts. I'm having a colonoscopy tomorrow AM, so....it's a quick dash from the PC to the old John, if you know what I mean.....?:uhoh:
 
"If the gun has potential, I'm going to give it every chance."
This. Most of the "fan boys" seem to be speaking from curious optimism, while it seems the majority of detractors come off as coiled rattlesnakes ("I knew it wouldn't be any good" manages to slip out frequently at the end of even a fairly even-handed examination of its faults/features)

Personally, I wanna see what custom shops can wring out of this design. Imagine those swoops polished and blued/hard chromed, the trigger shortened, lightened, and smoothed to the extent of any other SA hammer system, fancy grips of discerning material, tightened up slide rails & polished, and a barrel seat screwed onto the barrel for the slide to self-align against for increased accuracy (turn those grooves into square threads and bore the front of the slide for a conical seat to mate into). Anyone else notice how much simpler the barrel is from Browning-derived designs, and how much smaller the blank to make it needs to be?

Imagine if the 1911 had had no further development since the 92 replaced it, since "that design's a hundred years old and no one uses it (they used the Hi Power for inspiration in nearly all subsequent designs)." Imagine if nothing but the original-spec rattle-ey 1911s were all we had to go by, to say nothing of the dubious QC of the makers of the day leading up to the 91. Shooters and smiths have done a butt-ton of R&D themselves to make the platform into something good, mostly tempted by the uniquely-tunable trigger design. If the R51 trigger is similarly tweakable, I see absolutely no reason why it won't take off in duty/competition circles when smaller guns are desired.

TCB
 
There still seems to be some confusion on how this and other pistol actions operate; I'll try to give a very coarse overview of the various layouts currently offered and the ones the R51 seems to be compared to

Tilting Barrel:
-1911; a pivoting link pushes the barrel up into the slide, causing grooved locking surfaces in the barrel and slide to mesh and lock together. Chamber pressure (resulting in bullet movement/recoil) drives the two meshed parts backward against the moving bullet until pressure drops, at which point the pivoting link drags the barrel down from the slide. The slide continues back on its own momentum (the barrel door-stops against the lower frame and comes to a rest) and the extractor mounted on the integral breechface drags the case from the chamber. The initial slide of the barrel backward rather than the pivot is why the return spring can't go around the barrel; it wouldn't be able to push the barrel forward relative to the frame (only the slide)
-Hi Power; same general concept, only a milled ramp integral on the underside of the barrel contacting a cross pin drags the barrel down from the slide

Rotating Barrel:
-As with the 1911, the locked slide/barrel are pushed backward against the bullet as a locked unit until it exits and pressures drop, at which point the a cam on the frame spins the barrel relative to the slide, and allows the two to disengage. Again, an integral breech block on the slide with an extractor drags the case out on its own retained momentum. This is essentially a rotational analog of the linear Browning tilt-barrel systems.

C96 Mauser:
-I personally think the C96 is closest in layout to the Pedersen action, though they do differ in function. Like the Pedersen, it has a breechblock separate from the slide. However, this antiquated and complex design also has a moving barrel and separate locking piece (more moving parts to obtain a similar result). In the Mauser, the barrel is the slide, and the separate breechblock is pressed up inside its rear portion and locked to it (much like a 1911 barrel to the slide) by a pivoting locking piece driven upward by a cam on the lower frame. To unlock, the locking piece must travel backward off the frame cam (along with the barrel and breechblock), and to do that, the slide/barrel can shift back a short ways. Once the breechblock and barrel decouple, the barrel stops and the breechblock continues on its own momentum to eject/feed.

Blowback:
-True Blowback; All pistols are technically blowbacks if they lack a gas piston. As with locked breeches, gas pressure on the bolt face ultimately is what operates the gun (we call them "recoil operated" because the pressure also drives the bullet forward, generating equal and opposite momentum on each --the "recoil" is the name given to the gun-side of that equation). Simple blowbacks rely on nothing but bolt mass (and to a lesser extent spring pre-load) to slow down the opening of the breech under pressure. Obviously, when higher pressures or slower moving bullets try to open the breech under pressure faster or a greater distance over a longer time, respectively, the bolt/slide mass must go up. The higher the momentum of the bullet, the higher too for the bolt, and battering of the slide stops quickly takes over unless heavy springs are used to cushion the frame (the real reason for heavy springs on blowbacks). For something as small as a pistol, the bolt rapidly gets too large to be practical much beyond cartridges of 9mm power levels. Locked breeches bring the number back down by essentially hiding the true momentum of the bullet from the gun by locking the breech and slide together while under pressure.
-Delayed Blowback; most systems use mechanical advantage (leverage) to effectively multiply the mass of the reciprocating system by forcing a secondary mass to travel faster than the portion actually resisting the breach. There aren't very many examples of this type in pistols because it is still too difficult to get enough delay for powerful cartridges and still retain reliable function, but it is seen commonly in rifles like the H&K G3 platform. The other method of delay that's been successfully implemented in several pistols is gas delay, in which some chamber pressure is tapped and used to oppose the rearward travel of the slide/bolt face. The H&K P7 and Steyr GB function very well, but these systems require very fine tuning of the design and a narrower band of ammo power levels for reliable/safe function than locked breeches enjoy. They are also susceptible to gas port fouling like any truly gas operated system.

FNH Five-seveN:
A weird hybrid of recoil operation and delayed blowback. The barrel and slide are linked, but are not locked. Initially, a lever connects the two, but at different distances from the pivot so that movement of the slide also results in a slightly lesser movement of the barrel in the same direction. This has the effect of slowing the rate at which a breech of given mass opens (delayed blowback) and also increases the overall reciprocating mass opposing the bullet's momentum (a benefit of a locked barrel/breech recoil system). The design is carefully calibrated so that the barrel and slide decouple while the case is still pressurized at a lower level, and the gun operates as a simple blowback thereafter.

Model 51/R51 (Pedersen):
Barrel is fixed. The slide mostly serves to add reciprocating mass to slow unlocking of the separate breechblock and guide its travel during feeding/ejection. When in battery, the slide holds the fully-forward breechblock downward, where it locks into the lower frame to oppose pressure in the fixed barrel. However, there is a small bit of slop between the contact surfaces of the breechblock and frame, which allows the breechblock/slide to shift backward briefly (like a simple blowback), just enough to impart momentum to the slide. At the instant the breechblock contacts the frame, the system is a true locked breech for the remainder of the pressure cycle. It is not a delayed blowback; the breech is fixed during this portion of the cycle. The slide's momentum carries it back long enough for pressures to drop, at which time the breechblock is cammed upward from the frame and slides back with the slide to eject/feed. If you think of the slide as a bolt carrier and the breechblock as a tilting bolt, the system is more like an SKS or Ithaca M37 shotgun, only actuated by that initial stutter of blowback energy rather than a separate gas piston or manual pump action. Because the barrel is fixed, it can be used as the guide rod to keep the slide tensioned relative to the frame.

Hopefully this clears the water for some folks on exactly what is going on in these guns, and why describing the R51 as Blowback or Delayed Blowback is quite misleading. A fixed barrel does not equate to blowback, cheapness, harsh recoil, or any other inherent design flaw. It is, however, one less moving part to go wrong (though the separate breechblock is another --you can't win since the two have to separate somehow :D).

TCB
 
The Truth About Guns review didn't really sway my interest.

The guy mainly complained about slide-bite, and admitted that he had very large hands. That's always a potential when you mix large hands with small guns - I also have small hands so I don't usually suffer any issues with those sorts of things.

The other complaint was a lack of tactile reset. I've personally never bought into the hype of the reset feel being so important.

Given that even they admitted that the gun was completely reliable in their testing, I definitely plan on getting one.
 
The other complaint was a lack of tactile reset. I've personally never bought into the hype of the reset feel being so important.

Heck if it did have tactile reset he probably would have complained about trigger slap.
 
The Truth About Guns review didn't really sway my interest.

The guy mainly complained about slide-bite, and admitted that he had very large hands. That's always a potential when you mix large hands with small guns - I also have small hands so I don't usually suffer any issues with those sorts of things.

The other complaint was a lack of tactile reset. I've personally never bought into the hype of the reset feel being so important.

Given that even they admitted that the gun was completely reliable in their testing, I definitely plan on getting one.

Don't forget they mentioned that if you don't reassemble it as instructed in the manual, it might not work reliably after reassembly! That was one of the more "facepalm" moments of the review. For what gun is that NOT the case?
 
There still seems to be some confusion on how this and other pistol actions operate; I'll try to give a very coarse overview of the various layouts currently offered and the ones the R51 seems to be compared to

Tilting Barrel:
-1911; a pivoting link pushes the barrel up into the slide, causing grooved locking surfaces in the barrel and slide to mesh and lock together. Chamber pressure (resulting in bullet movement/recoil) drives the two meshed parts backward against the moving bullet until pressure drops, at which point the pivoting link drags the barrel down from the slide. The slide continues back on its own momentum (the barrel door-stops against the lower frame and comes to a rest) and the extractor mounted on the integral breechface drags the case from the chamber. The initial slide of the barrel backward rather than the pivot is why the return spring can't go around the barrel; it wouldn't be able to push the barrel forward relative to the frame (only the slide)
-Hi Power; same general concept, only a milled ramp integral on the underside of the barrel contacting a cross pin drags the barrel down from the slide

Rotating Barrel:
-As with the 1911, the locked slide/barrel are pushed backward against the bullet as a locked unit until it exits and pressures drop, at which point the a cam on the frame spins the barrel relative to the slide, and allows the two to disengage. Again, an integral breech block on the slide with an extractor drags the case out on its own retained momentum. This is essentially a rotational analog of the linear Browning tilt-barrel systems.

C96 Mauser:
-I personally think the C96 is closest in layout to the Pedersen action, though they do differ in function. Like the Pedersen, it has a breechblock separate from the slide. However, this antiquated and complex design also has a moving barrel and separate locking piece (more moving parts to obtain a similar result). In the Mauser, the barrel is the slide, and the separate breechblock is pressed up inside its rear portion and locked to it (much like a 1911 barrel to the slide) by a pivoting locking piece driven upward by a cam on the lower frame. To unlock, the locking piece must travel backward off the frame cam (along with the barrel and breechblock), and to do that, the slide/barrel can shift back a short ways. Once the breechblock and barrel decouple, the barrel stops and the breechblock continues on its own momentum to eject/feed.

Blowback:
-True Blowback; All pistols are technically blowbacks if they lack a gas piston. As with locked breeches, gas pressure on the bolt face ultimately is what operates the gun (we call them "recoil operated" because the pressure also drives the bullet forward, generating equal and opposite momentum on each --the "recoil" is the name given to the gun-side of that equation). Simple blowbacks rely on nothing but bolt mass (and to a lesser extent spring pre-load) to slow down the opening of the breech under pressure. Obviously, when higher pressures or slower moving bullets try to open the breech under pressure faster or a greater distance over a longer time, respectively, the bolt/slide mass must go up. The higher the momentum of the bullet, the higher too for the bolt, and battering of the slide stops quickly takes over unless heavy springs are used to cushion the frame (the real reason for heavy springs on blowbacks). For something as small as a pistol, the bolt rapidly gets too large to be practical much beyond cartridges of 9mm power levels. Locked breeches bring the number back down by essentially hiding the true momentum of the bullet from the gun by locking the breech and slide together while under pressure.
-Delayed Blowback; most systems use mechanical advantage (leverage) to effectively multiply the mass of the reciprocating system by forcing a secondary mass to travel faster than the portion actually resisting the breach. There aren't very many examples of this type in pistols because it is still too difficult to get enough delay for powerful cartridges and still retain reliable function, but it is seen commonly in rifles like the H&K G3 platform. The other method of delay that's been successfully implemented in several pistols is gas delay, in which some chamber pressure is tapped and used to oppose the rearward travel of the slide/bolt face. The H&K P7 and Steyr GB function very well, but these systems require very fine tuning of the design and a narrower band of ammo power levels for reliable/safe function than locked breeches enjoy. They are also susceptible to gas port fouling like any truly gas operated system.

FNH Five-seveN:
A weird hybrid of recoil operation and delayed blowback. The barrel and slide are linked, but are not locked. Initially, a lever connects the two, but at different distances from the pivot so that movement of the slide also results in a slightly lesser movement of the barrel in the same direction. This has the effect of slowing the rate at which a breech of given mass opens (delayed blowback) and also increases the overall reciprocating mass opposing the bullet's momentum (a benefit of a locked barrel/breech recoil system). The design is carefully calibrated so that the barrel and slide decouple while the case is still pressurized at a lower level, and the gun operates as a simple blowback thereafter.

Model 51/R51 (Pedersen):
Barrel is fixed. The slide mostly serves to add reciprocating mass to slow unlocking of the separate breechblock and guide its travel during feeding/ejection. When in battery, the slide holds the fully-forward breechblock downward, where it locks into the lower frame to oppose pressure in the fixed barrel. However, there is a small bit of slop between the contact surfaces of the breechblock and frame, which allows the breechblock/slide to shift backward briefly (like a simple blowback), just enough to impart momentum to the slide. At the instant the breechblock contacts the frame, the system is a true locked breech for the remainder of the pressure cycle. It is not a delayed blowback; the breech is fixed during this portion of the cycle. The slide's momentum carries it back long enough for pressures to drop, at which time the breechblock is cammed upward from the frame and slides back with the slide to eject/feed. If you think of the slide as a bolt carrier and the breechblock as a tilting bolt, the system is more like an SKS or Ithaca M37 shotgun, only actuated by that initial stutter of blowback energy rather than a separate gas piston or manual pump action. Because the barrel is fixed, it can be used as the guide rod to keep the slide tensioned relative to the frame.

Hopefully this clears the water for some folks on exactly what is going on in these guns, and why describing the R51 as Blowback or Delayed Blowback is quite misleading. A fixed barrel does not equate to blowback, cheapness, harsh recoil, or any other inherent design flaw. It is, however, one less moving part to go wrong (though the separate breechblock is another --you can't win since the two have to separate somehow :D).

TCB

Very nicely done. Thank you for taking the time to hit the reset button on what we are really discussing.
 
Most of the "fan boys" seem to be speaking from curious optimism, while it seems the majority of detractors come off as coiled rattlesnakes ("I knew it wouldn't be any good" manages to slip out frequently at the end of even a fairly even-handed examination of its faults/features)
I've noticed this as well. I know people can be opinionated, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people there are, whenever any knew design comes out, who will jump in, long before an example of the gun makes its way into their hands, and categorically declare that its going to be a piece of junk and anyone interesed in buying a gun that size should just "get a (insert commenter's favorite pistol here)." One comment that is absolutely guaranteed to come up when any really new design comes along is "solution in search of a problem."

I've never understood any of this. Why do so many people seem to actively want any new design to fail?
 
"Bad Mouthing" Gun Critics

I've noticed this as well. I know people can be opinionated, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people there are, whenever any knew design comes out, who will jump in, long before an example of the gun makes its way into their hands, and categorically declare that its going to be a piece of junk and anyone interesed in buying a gun that size should just "get a (insert commenter's favorite pistol here)." One comment that is absolutely guaranteed to come up when any really new design comes along is "solution in search of a problem."

I've never understood any of this. Why do so many people seem to actively want any new design to fail?
Personality, job security, bad marriage, constipation........whatever, who knows, but it does happen. We just need to not accept all of what they say, because they're "experts".:scrutiny:
 
They see a legitimate competitor as a threat to their gun's hegemony --and that scares them since they think only 'the best' can defend them against the unknown ;)

TCB
 
They see a legitimate competitor as a threat to their gun's hegemony --and that scares them since they think only 'the best' can defend them against the unknown ;)

TCB

For many people their pistols have, at least at a subconscious level, the magical protective qualities that people in primitive cultures assign to the totems regularly carried on their persons to protect them from supernatural and real threats. Admitting that anything else could provide just as potent defense creates doubt in their magical thinking.
 
For many people their pistols have, at least at a subconscious level, the magical protective qualities that people in primitive cultures assign to the totems regularly carried on their persons to protect them from supernatural and real threats. Admitting that anything else could provide just as potent defense creates doubt in their magical thinking.

This! ^^^^^^^^ :)

Folks have done the very same with the Glock 42, the upcoming Beretta Pico and other pistols...they hate it and fear it/are intimidated that other folks might find it useful or excellent and so manage their irrational fears (that what they really like and trust might not be "all that and a bag of chips for everyone/everywhere/all the time!!" ) by trashing it before anyone has had the opportunity to fully test it and see how it performs in the hands of many people of diversified interests and aptitudes.

You know....Haters gotta Hate. Right? :D

That said, I'm not in the market for it but hope it does well and folks like it and use it/buy it. It's another potential SD platform and we need as many as the market can tolerate.

That THAT said, I personally have found TTAG reviews to be pretty accurate overall for an "Internet Based Gun Review" which is bought and paid for one way or the other. Eventually it just is another opinion and to really know we have to shoot them and evaluate it our own selves. I do my own reviews - my Wife does hers. We are vastly different folks and the proff of a great gun is in the shooting in my hands. I'm personally looking forward to shooting an R51 but will probably not run out and buy one to do that. Someone in my immediate vicinity or at the Range will do so and I'll shoot his.

VooDoo
 
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That THAT said, I personally have found TTAG reviews to be pretty accurate overall for an "Internet Based Gun Review" which is bought and paid for one way or the other.
Maybe, but I'm finding it really hard to believe the recoil was as punishing as he says it is. He attributes it directly to the narrow width of the gun focusing all the recoil right into a small area of your hand. First off, I've heard no other reports of this painful recoil from the few others who've had a chance to shoot it so far, and secondly, I have a gun (Walther PPS), which is just as narrow in the grip area, and is even lighter in weight, and I don't find it even remotely unpleasant to shoot, with either standard pressure ammo or +P. I've fired guns which are unpleasant to shoot (scandium J frames with .38 +Ps, and 4in .44 magnums with hot loads), and the Walther, while it's not a soft shooter, is not one of them. Given this guns similar size and weight, I'd be surprised if its any worse.

Also, comments like this one bother me:

Not all of these improvements are actual improvements, though — the recessing of the magazine baseplate is a carry mod too far. The magazine’s baseplate sits flush with the surrounding metal, making it nice and smooth. But when you try and insert the magazine into the gun with the palm of your hand – like a normal reload – you have to physically press the magazine into the gun until the magazine catch clicks. Otherwise the gun won’t run.

Really? You have to insert the magazine in all the way or the gun won't function. :scrutiny: Who'da thunk it? Thanks for the warning Captain Obvious. His gripe seems to be that the magazine baseplate fits flush with the grip. So what? A lot of guns, and virtually all older ones have that feature. If this really bothers you, I'm sure you can get a rubber base pad and put it on. Complaints like this make it look like he was bending over backwards to find things to ding the gun on, while at the same time minimizing the gun's good point (e.g. a single short sentence about the gun's functioning with all ammo, without a single malfunction). And inconsistent statements like "...theRemington R51 is painful to shoot, even with light loads" and "The R51′s low bore axis and lighter slide did indeed reduce felt recoil..." Well which is it?

The review comes across like Leghorn wanted to ding the gun. Whether this was because TTAG was honked off at not having been invited to shoot it originally, or because they think that picking a few guns to review negatively will get them a reputation for "telling it like it is" or something else I don't know. But I'll judge this thing for myself when it comes out.
 
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TTAG is no better at a review than the run of the mill gun buyer. You have a lady there that shoots the heck out of a small heavier recoil light pm9 and then a guy that does not like smaller heavier recoiling guns that does not like a R51. As if a 6.3" 21oz pistol is light. What if he had tested the pm9 or 40. Maybe TTAG should do reviews only as a mix of peoples reviews instead of one guy they my be the worse they have for that handgun.

I am not sure if I have shot a firearm that I did not like atleast for what it was. I will always try to swap firearms if I can at gun ranges and have got'n to shoot lots of firearms I otherwise would never have got'n the chance to try .
 
Ok, well I guess I was a bit harsh..

Imo, it's a turd.

:)

That's cool. I'd like to hear more. Can you tell us about your experience handling and shooting the R51?
 
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