Jim Watson
Member
Agree. It goes back to "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they are not."
Removing serial number from 80% frame?
- Thread starter Elkins45
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DukeConnor
Member
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2016
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80% glocks are so cheap why even bother with anything that makes you uncomfortable.
BSA1
member
No one has asked the obvious question.
Who is the seller in California shipping the gun too? A FFL or directly to the buyer?
And the second question is what shipper is he using? USPS or UPS/ Fed-Ex?
Who is the seller in California shipping the gun too? A FFL or directly to the buyer?
And the second question is what shipper is he using? USPS or UPS/ Fed-Ex?
Last edited:
OP
OP
Elkins45
Member
I don’t understand these questions. We aren’t talking about a gun, we’re talking about a hunk of unregulated plastic. And the seller is local, not in California.
It's legal under federal law to remove the serial number before the frame is a firearm because there are no rules pertaining to the treatment of serial numbers on things that aren't firearms.
If you leave it right there, everything is very clear and there's no way you can get into trouble.
But let's say that you make it into a firearm. Now it's more complicated.
Once it's a firearm, it is now a firearm with a serial number that has been altered/defaced/removed and the law says that possessing a firearm with a serial number that has been altered/defaced/removed is a federal crime. That's the simplest interpretation of the law.
The fact that the alteration/defacement/removal happened before the frame was a firearm will absolve you of the act of altering/defacing/removing the serial number, assuming you can prove you did it before it was a firearm. Since it will be you proving to the legal system when the serial number was altered, I feel confident in stating that it will be inexpensive and simple to do. If it were my money, time and freedom on the line, I might be more conservative about it.
But remember, it's not just a crime to remove a serial number from a firearm, it's also a crime to possess a firearm with an altered/defaced/removed serial number. It will be more complicated to get out of that charge. Maybe you could argue that the serial number wasn't the "manufacturer's" or "importer's" serial number and get off using that argument. I don't know. Or maybe you could argue that it's never been shipped or transported in interstate commerce since it became a firearm and get out of it that way. I don't know.
By the way, forget about the idea of being innocent until proven guilty. The frame is really good evidence of guilt and you're going to provide that to the legal system out of the goodness of your heart. So you're going to start out guilty, having given the legal system strong evidence of your guilt, and will have to prove why that evidence doesn't mean what it seems to mean. It might be possible. Again, since it's you doing it, I think it will be cheap and inexpensive. Not stressful or likely to totally destroy your life, or cost you your life's savings, or the right to own firearms in the future, or to take your freedom, or anything like that.
If you do it, keep a good record (best would be a video log) of the whole thing, including any arrests/trials/etc. I, for one, would find it pretty entertaining. Also, the kind of people who don't have to actually eat an egg to realize it is rotten could watch it and learn from it.
If you leave it right there, everything is very clear and there's no way you can get into trouble.
But let's say that you make it into a firearm. Now it's more complicated.
Once it's a firearm, it is now a firearm with a serial number that has been altered/defaced/removed and the law says that possessing a firearm with a serial number that has been altered/defaced/removed is a federal crime. That's the simplest interpretation of the law.
The fact that the alteration/defacement/removal happened before the frame was a firearm will absolve you of the act of altering/defacing/removing the serial number, assuming you can prove you did it before it was a firearm. Since it will be you proving to the legal system when the serial number was altered, I feel confident in stating that it will be inexpensive and simple to do. If it were my money, time and freedom on the line, I might be more conservative about it.
But remember, it's not just a crime to remove a serial number from a firearm, it's also a crime to possess a firearm with an altered/defaced/removed serial number. It will be more complicated to get out of that charge. Maybe you could argue that the serial number wasn't the "manufacturer's" or "importer's" serial number and get off using that argument. I don't know. Or maybe you could argue that it's never been shipped or transported in interstate commerce since it became a firearm and get out of it that way. I don't know.
By the way, forget about the idea of being innocent until proven guilty. The frame is really good evidence of guilt and you're going to provide that to the legal system out of the goodness of your heart. So you're going to start out guilty, having given the legal system strong evidence of your guilt, and will have to prove why that evidence doesn't mean what it seems to mean. It might be possible. Again, since it's you doing it, I think it will be cheap and inexpensive. Not stressful or likely to totally destroy your life, or cost you your life's savings, or the right to own firearms in the future, or to take your freedom, or anything like that.
If you do it, keep a good record (best would be a video log) of the whole thing, including any arrests/trials/etc. I, for one, would find it pretty entertaining. Also, the kind of people who don't have to actually eat an egg to realize it is rotten could watch it and learn from it.
IMHO If the frame already has a serial number it is going to stay that way if it is to remain in my possession. Once I sell it to you, you can do whatever you please with your new serialized pistol frame.To cherry pick a few words out of a few paragraphs is looking for legal trouble. you may win but at what cost.
Isn't it amazing how easy it is for someone who isn't doing something to conclude that doing that thing will be without legal risk or complication. As long as we don't need to be concerned with cleaning up any possible mess, why would we worry? (And John is being sarcastic.)
As far as I'm concerned, absent clear, on point case law that gets the OP off the hook, I wouldn't risk it.
OP
OP
Elkins45
Member
Well, I’ve learned something today. Since they are serialized they have to be transferred thru an FFL.
Turns out all this talk was for nothing. Since it transfers on a 4473 only an idiot would even consider removing the SN.
Turns out all this talk was for nothing. Since it transfers on a 4473 only an idiot would even consider removing the SN.
RickD427
Member
It's legal under federal law to remove the serial number before the frame is a firearm because there are no rules pertaining to the treatment of serial numbers on things that aren't firearms.
If you leave it right there, everything is very clear and there's no way you can get into trouble.
But let's say that you make it into a firearm. Now it's more complicated.
Once it's a firearm, it is now a firearm with a serial number that has been altered/defaced/removed and the law says that possessing a firearm with a serial number that has been altered/defaced/removed is a federal crime. That's the simplest interpretation of the law.
The fact that the alteration/defacement/removal happened before the frame was a firearm will absolve you of the act of altering/defacing/removing the serial number, assuming you can prove you did it before it was a firearm. Since it will be you proving to the legal system when the serial number was altered, I feel confident in stating that it will be inexpensive and simple to do. If it were my money, time and freedom on the line, I might be more conservative about it.
But remember, it's not just a crime to remove a serial number from a firearm, it's also a crime to possess a firearm with an altered/defaced/removed serial number. It will be more complicated to get out of that charge. Maybe you could argue that the serial number wasn't the "manufacturer's" or "importer's" serial number and get off using that argument. I don't know. Or maybe you could argue that it's never been shipped or transported in interstate commerce since it became a firearm and get out of it that way. I don't know.
By the way, forget about the idea of being innocent until proven guilty. The frame is really good evidence of guilt and you're going to provide that to the legal system out of the goodness of your heart. So you're going to start out guilty, having given the legal system strong evidence of your guilt, and will have to prove why that evidence doesn't mean what it seems to mean. It might be possible. Again, since it's you doing it, I think it will be cheap and inexpensive. Not stressful or likely to totally destroy your life, or cost you your life's savings, or the right to own firearms in the future, or to take your freedom, or anything like that.
If you do it, keep a good record (best would be a video log) of the whole thing, including any arrests/trials/etc. I, for one, would find it pretty entertaining. Also, the kind of people who don't have to actually eat an egg to realize it is rotten could watch it and learn from it.
Be careful here. While you're correct that no federal law precludes one from removing the serial number from an object that is not (yet) a firearm, state laws may make such an action illegal.
California is such a state. California Penal Code section 537e makes it illegal to remove the serial number from "any personal property" which would include 80% blanks.
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