Replacing 11-87 with 870?

[anythingelse]

I have an 11-87 I grew up with. Mid 1990s vintage SPS 3" chamber with the 28" vent rib and the 20" fully rifled slug barrel. It was my first real firearm aside from .22s. I put a lot of rounds through it and know it well. Decent gun overall but we had to replace the entire trigger group recently due to some mechanical failure. I believe this may be due in part because we weren't completely taking the gun apart to clean it, just a field strip. In fairness we didn't know any better and I'm still unsure exactly what's required to do a proper cleaning. Punch out the pins and remove the whole trigger assembly?

Either way I'm older now and am of the mindset that my shotgun should be reliable and preferably easy to maintain. The 11-87 isn't either of those things what with its O-rings, complex disassembly, etc etc. As much as I want to hold onto that gun for the memories if nothing else I don't want to be taking the thing down to nuts and bolts every 200 rounds.

That in mind I'm floating the thought of replacing this 11-87 with an 870. I've never personally fired an 870 but they seem to have a good reputation. What do you guys think? Should I hold on to the 11-87 and get better familiar with its maintenance procedures and quirks or pass it on and get a pump?

 

[Virginian]

Well first, if an 11-87 is too complicated for you, a pump gun is hardly that much less complicated. Secondly, an 11-87 can be perfectly reliable. My '63 1100, which is 99.4% the same gun, has the same O ring I replaced the metal V ring with in about 1967 in it, and it is doing fine. My semis are completely reliable, but I clean them anytime I shoot 1 round or 300; not a detail strip but at least a quick spray and wipe down of the gas parts. If you do not like that idea, a pump would be a good choice. If you hunt, twigs and grass seeds and junk can mess up any trigger group, auto or pump. If you knock out the pins, pull the trigger group, flush it liberally with RemOil or CLP or whatever you prefer, shake off the excess, wipe it good with a rag or a paper towel you should be good to go again. I use an old shaving brush to get in all the nooks and crannies.
But, having said all that, if the 11-87 feels good to you an 870 will feel good too because the layout and controls are nearly identical, aside from the fact the 870 is a pump. And a pump gun will run cleaner than any gas auto. Now the Express haters will tell you they are awful, they are hardly that, but they are not polished. The most recent ones I have seen are a step up in the finish department however. Any Wingmaster, new or used in good shape, will serve anyone well.
I have had 12 1100s/11-87s and six 870s and have never had a complaint about any of them. Good luck.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

All guns need cleaning and maintenence. Stuff breaks from time to time.
You should pull the trigger assembly out of an 870 periodicly just like the 11-87. You do not have to disassemble the trigger group, just pull it out, hit it with a spray cleaner, relube and put it back in.

If your looking for something that doesn't require the level of cleaning as the 11-87, the 870 will fill your need.
I have gas autos from Remington and Beretta. I hate cleaning them, but I knew going in what was going to be required to keep them running properly.
Mine are not designated for any kind of SD, so I'm quite comfortable shooting them.

 

[LeonCarr]

Keep the 11-87 AND get the 870 .

Punch out pins, remove trigger assembly, spray down with Rem Oil, lightly scrub with toothbrush, spray down again with Rem Oil, shake off excess, reinstall in gun. That procedure works for just about any Remington shotgun made since 1950.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[anythingelse]

Im not opposed to a thorough cleaning, I have to strip my 1911 down each time I use it. Just a bit reluctant to drift out pins.

My father has a Beretta AL391 Urika I might be able to appropriate (it's just gathering dust). Anyone have experience with that model?

 

[Fishbed77]

Either way I'm older now and am of the mindset that my shotgun should be reliable and preferably easy to maintain. The 11-87 isn't either of those things what with its O-rings, complex disassembly, etc etc

Huh?

An 11-87 IS easy to maintain. Certainly no more difficult than an 870. The trigger group is removed the same way, the gas system is easy to take apart and clean, and it is probably faster to re-assemble than an 870. Sure, you have to periodically wipe of the outside of the mag tube and gas rings and very lightly oil them, but if you can wipe your butt, you can probably handle that.

I've run my 1993-production 28" Light Contour 11-87 Premiere for over 20 years now (mostly dove hunting, but also quite a bit of informal sporting clays), and I can't recall a single malfunction. I haven't replaced the O-ring yet. I have removed the trigger group for cleaning exactly one time. A good spray, a hit with an air compressor, and a light oiling were all it needed.

 

[PJSprog]

An 870 will serve you well. Every gun will come with its own quirks. Shoot one first, and see if you like it. I'm willing to bet you probably know half a dozen people who own one.

Then decide if it's the gun for you.

 

[Black Knight]

I'm with LeonCarr. Instead of replacing the 11-87 why not simply add an 870 to the collection? Considering the wood and finish of the 11-87 I would recommend a new 870 Wingmaster or a very good used one. I have a couple of Wingmasters from the 1970s and 80s and they are just great. One has become my home defense shotgun since it has a 20" rifle sight barrel.

 

[Virginian]

Those pins you are reluctant to drift out will come out with a dull lead pencil. They have small metal springs that hold them in, they are not a tight fit. I think you need to download an owners manual and read it. A Beretta will run a little cleaner than an 11-87 but they need cleaning too.

 

[throdgrain]

I've got one of each, that's the answer to this question

 

[USAF_Vet]

If you want a pump gun that is easy to clean and maintain, go with the Mossberg 500. Easiest shotgun to field strip or detail strip for deep cleaning. If you prefer the safety closer to a Remington, I'd suggest the Maverick 88, the Mossberg 500s twin cousin.

For what its worth, keep the 11-87, because its a nostalgic gun for you personally, because its a very good gun overall, and because you'd be losing in a trade.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Try an 870 and keep your current shotgun. I had my 870 since 1982 it is great.

 

[peacemaker45]

I surely wouldn't sell a gun because I didn't want to learn to take care of it.

Another option, if you just can't stand the idea of maintaining a gas gun, would be to get a recoil operated semi. I'm partial to A5s, but the maintenance averse might do well to look at the Benellis.

 

[anythingelse]

It's not that I don't want to learn to take care of it, I know how to take care of it, but the thing outright flat out failed on me on more than one occasion. First time a piece in the trigger group sheared off and jammed the whole thing up. Verified that by looking at the old trigger group, which I still have in a bag, in pieces. Subsequent times it jammed and this was with cleaning. I grew up with the thing and am fond of it but it's a heavy relic from another time.

Might just go with something else all together. Thanks for your help guys.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

The 870 is KISS simple to maintain and it is perfectly reliable. I work on both the 870 and the 11-87 and I am factory certified on both and the 870 is my go to. The more working parts in the weapon the more to go wrong and the more maintenance involved. The best way to FUBAR a good day of hunting is to have a weapon go down on you so having the most reliable gun for that hunt is a must.

 

[jmr40]

If you've been shooting a semi for 20 years the transition to a pump will take some time. Don't be surprised if you forget to pump it and keep trying to pull the trigger at first.

An 870 will certainly be much simpler, with far fewer parts to clean and about 1/2 lb lighter because it has fewer parts. In theory a pump is mechanically more reliable. The gun will function with ammo that any semi will choke on. But pumps are dependent on the operators who often fail. In real world situations a semi is generally more reliable if it is kept even reasonably clean and good clean ammo is used. If you're picking up ammo from the bottom of a muddy duck hunting boat and loading them in the magazine the pump is more likely to feed them.

If you want to buy a pump to add to the collection then go for it. But after using a semi as long as you have I think that is what you will keep going back to. There is nothing really wrong with the 11-87. They work just fine, but it is a 50 year old design. There are better options out there today in a semi-auto shotgun that are much simpler, more reliable and lighter. I'd at least explore other options.

 

[Old Shooter]

I agree to keep the 11-87 and just go out and buy an 870.

Being your first shotgun, in the future I can almost guarantee you will regret selling it. Time will make you forget the maintenance issues but the good memories you have of it will not go away.

Buy either a Wingmaster (my favorite) or an express and shoot the daylights out of it. When you feel like it, take the 11-87 out and then go thru the take-down, cleaning process at your convenience. The process will get easier as you do it a few times.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Those pins you are reluctant to drift out will come out with a dull lead pencil.

I use a wooden golf tee for that ...

If you have your 11-87 'chops' down pat at this point, I'd suggest buying a smoothbore slug barrel (with rifle sights) for it and using it for HD in that configuration, rather than getting a different type of shotgun. Better to learn basic maintenance on the gun you have than to learn how to run a different gun that STILL has the same basic maintenance requirements.

Or AT LEAST getting reflexively consistent at using the 870 BEFORE you start relying on it for HD. "Muscle memory" is nothing to take for granted... Ya gotta pump a pumpgun, not just press the trigger again...

 

[Fast Frank]

There's a few things that you need to know, and nobody is saying it.

1. an 11-87 is an 870 that pumps it's self. The 11-87 has a spring in the buttstock to close the bolt, and a gas piston in the front where the pump goes. the trigger group has a bolt hold open made into it.

The bolt, lockup, magazine, action bars, feeding and ejecting are the same.

When you take the two guns apart and look at how they work, any discussion about reliability differences becomes ridiculous. They are the same.

2. The O ring gets lots of talk on the internet. I've seen a hundred posts where people seem to fear some massive failure and the O ring is the bad guy every time.

Funny, but all the other places where O rings are used they have a reputation of being the best way to seal something.

That's right- the O ring is a gasket. It seals the joint where the barrel (It's also the cylinder the gas piston rides in) meets the magazine tube.

O rings are on lots of stuff. They are on the cooling system and are used to hold oil on your car motor. The fuel injectors in your car have two O rings apiece and their might be eight injectors in your car... that's sixteen O rings right there!

Funny, but nobody ever says "I don't want to drive that car! It's got O RINGS on it!"

No, we trust them and don't think about them, because they work.

The problem with O rings comes when you put them in.

See, O rings are rubber. We all know that dry rubber grips, and wet rubber slips.

So, when we install an O-ring, we MUST lubricate it so it will slide into place.

If we try to just cram a dry O ring into place, it will invariably pinch between the two mating surfaces because it's gripping and can't slide into place.

That pinch cuts a small piece out of the O ring and allows it to leak. Shooting the gun sends hot gasses through the leak and eventually erodes it to the point where there's not enough pressure to work the action.

No biggie- Just make sure the Oring is lubed and installed correctly and you are good to go.

I bought a small pack with three or four of the correct O rings, and tossed it in with my cleaning stuff. That was about five years ago, and I still have all of them. That's all it takes to win the O ring battle.

When you take the gun apart, look at your O ring. If it's still pliable and not torn, lube it and put it back in. That's it. Nothing more is needed.

It's a small task and certainly not a reason to avoid the 11-87.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

They are not the same. That is obvious when one understands the two weapons in question. To state that they are equally reliable also show a lack of understanding on how each model operates. Any time you add required automatic function and more parts the weapon is subject to more failures.

Also, you do not lubricate the barrel seal. Not sure where your information is coming from but it is incorrect. I am also unclear about the two mating surfaces you speak of that would pinch the barrel seal. Are you talking about an 11-87 or some other make?

 

[chhodge69]

Look up some videos - the trigger group is really easy to remove/replace. It stays a single unit and there's no need to detail strip it. Don't let the pins intimidate you, they are designed for it.

But most importantly to your question, the 870 trigger group is of a similar design and requires the same maintenance.

 

[ugaarguy]

They are not the same. That is obvious when one understands the two weapons in question.

He said:

1. an 11-87 is an 870 that pumps it's self. The 11-87 has a spring in the buttstock to close the bolt, and a gas piston in the front where the pump goes. the trigger group has a bolt hold open made into it.

The bolt, lockup, magazine, action bars, feeding and ejecting are the same.

When you take the two guns apart and look at how they work, any discussion about reliability differences becomes ridiculous. They are the same.

In other words, he's saying the guns are so similar that they're essentially a manual action and automatic version of each other. He's not saying they're literally the same - he's saying they're practically the same.

To state that they are equally reliable also show a lack of understanding on how each model operates. Any time you add required automatic function and more parts the weapon is subject to more failures.

A pump shotgun can be short stroked, which is a user training / user induced reliability issue. As he explained above, the 11-87 adds only a few parts to the 870 design to automate the process. If those few extra parts are maintained the 11-87 will be just as reliable as an 870.

Also, you do not lubricate the barrel seal. Not sure where your information is coming from but it is incorrect. I am also unclear about the two mating surfaces you speak of that would pinch the barrel seal. Are you talking about an 11-87 or some other make?

The two surfaces he's talking about are the inside of the barrel lug and the outside of the magazine tube on an 11-87. The barrel seal (which is a teflon o-ring) fills the gap between these two surfaces, or seals said gap.

As far as lubrication, Brownells recommends a light lube of the entire outer surface of the magazine tube, after installation of the new barrel seal. That includes the new seal itself. Every gunsmith I've ever known has recommended the same thing, and keeping that area LIGHTLY lubricated. There are teflon / synthetic rubber safe high temp rated lubricants that won't degrade the bbl. seal, and can, in fact, prolong life. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that Remington advises LE armorers not to lube the bbl seal because many common gun lubricants are petroleum based, and they will degrade teflon and other synthetic rubber materials.

I know you're a Remington certified LE armorer AI&P. I know it's hard to let go of technically correct terms, and our firearms jargon. Just try to be a bit more open minded. Fast Frank didn't use all of the technically correct terms, but he has provided a rather accurate description in layman's terms.

 

[gamestalker]

I love the old 1100's and the 1187's as well. Both have been completely reliable and I find both extremely simple to maintain also. However, if maintaining a gas operated SG seems to be more than you care to maintain, a pump would certainly be a much easier maintenance SG.

I have 870's that are extremely old, I also have the newer express models that have received a lot of unjustified bashing. In my experience and opinion, there is no pump more reliable or easier to maintain than an 870. When my boys were very young they used to have contests tearing them down and reassembling them blind folded, so they are easy and almost impossible to get wrong.

GS

 

[Fishbed77]

2. The O ring gets lots of talk on the internet. I've seen a hundred posts where people seem to fear some massive failure and the O ring is the bad guy every time.

As mentioned before, I've used my 11-87 for 20 years now and have never replaced the O-ring. A very light coil of oil keeps it from perishing. My father's 11-87 is the same age and is also on the original. It's not a moving part, so it doesn't really receive any wear. It's just a non-issue.

To state that they are equally reliable also show a lack of understanding on how each model operates. Any time you add required automatic function and more parts the weapon is subject to more failures.

And yet my semi-auto 11-87 Premiere has been far more reliable than my brother's 870 Express (which came from Remington with an undersized chamber), or my friend's 870 Tactical (which has locked itself up on a live round before and crapped out completely, requiring a full dis-assembly).

 

[MachIVshooter]

And yet my semi-auto 11-87 Premiere has been far more reliable than my brother's 870 Express (which came from Remington with an undersized chamber), or my friend's 870 Tactical (which has locked itself up on a live round before and crapped out completely, requiring a full dis-assembly).

Agree completely. My 11-87 Police has always been reliable (save for trap loads-too light to cycle the Police model). The 870 express I had, OTOH, would frequently lock up with heavy buck/slug loads or 3" mags.

The 11-87 is also built to a little higher standard than your typical 870 express (the econo scattergun).

IMO, if you want a nice pump gun, take a look at the Ithacas instead. I'm definitely very loyal to big green in many ways, but the Ithaca 37 is hands-down superior to the 870, IMO (mainly from a quality stand point rather than a design one). The 870 was designed to be a good performing & relatively robust shotgun at the lowest possible price point. The Wingmaster versions have always seemed to be a little better made, but it's mostly just cosmetic.