Replacing PPK - What To Buy?

[mattx109]

My normal carry piece is a 1911 IWB (a Colt 1991A1 with Videcki trigger, to be exact). I'm a pretty lithe guy, but it conceals well with most clothing. In the summer, however, I have trouble with it printing too much while wearing only a t-shirt or other light garment.

Formerly I switched to a Walther PPK in these situations, but I was never comfortable with it. The gun was simply too unreliable, so I often just dealt with being overheated in a heavier cover garment.

With the weather heating up now, I'm looking to replace my PPK with something of similar size. Weight doesn't bother me much, and I prefer steel to plastic. External hammer and safety, and cocked-and-locked carry would be wonderful (I'd like to keep operation as close to my 1911 as possible). I'd like .380 or larger. Price is a concern at the moment, so the less expensive the better. Still, reliability and performance override cost for me, so any suggestion is welcome.

I've considered something from HK's lineup (P2000SK or P7), as I've owned several of their guns, but the cost is somewhat prohibitive. I'm aware that a compact 1911 style pistol would suit most of my needs, but the printing I get is mostly due to grip length. Are there any 1911 compacts (or subcompacts) with shortened grips?

Thanks in advance.

And no Glocks, please.

Edited to add:

I would potentially consider a revolver for this purpose, but the thickness of a cylinder is something of a deal breaker.

 

[jc2]

Makarov. Though DA/SA, the safety works just like the 1911 (down to fire, up to safe, locks the slide). It's boringly reliable and accurate (sights aren't too good though). It's somewhat more potent than the .380. It's all steel and should outlast just about anything else.

 

[Black Majik]

I can suggest 2 guns.

First off is the Sig P232. Very similar to the PPK, but a LOT more comfortable to shoot and fits the hand better.

Next would be the Kahr MK9 or MK40.

 

[mattx109]

The Makarov is now made by Baikal, right? Are they the only people producing these pistols, or are there clones of lower/higher quality? I previously owned one of their match-grade .22 pistols and was very pleased (I recently traded it in on a deal for a Chilean Mauser 1895).

My only real concern, I suppose, would be the price and availability of 9x18 ammunition. I shoot my carry gun weekly, which is expensive enough with common .45 ACP. How might the 9x18 Makarov treat my wallet?

 

[mattx109]

I had completely forgotten about the P232! I own a preban P226 right now, which has often given me second thoughts about carrying my 1911. I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a P232, and what kind of price I can get.

Thanks, Black.

 

[Mr Jody Hudson]

Makarov is known as one of the most, if not THE most, reliable and accurate of this size pistol. The ammo is readily available and perhaps the best is S&B fmj. Personally I'd opt for the Makarov over all other because of accuracy, reliability and the inexpensive ammo.

I suppose if you shoot weekly, you'd do far better to buy your ammo by the case anyway and save about half. It's about the least expensive ammo you can get.

The gun shop I frequent has sold about 800 of them and we have had no gun malfunctions that we know of. And we prefer S&B or other quality ammo, some of it is Russian, not usually the new Wolf however.

Accuracy, even with the military sights is sufficient for competitition... if the shooter does the job. They are also thin.

 

[priv8ter]

Bersa/Firestorm

I guess I'll go ahead and jump in with this one. Have you considered a Bersa/Firestorm .380? It might not be everything you are looking for but...

Pros:
You said cost is kind of an issue. These are very affordable. And, it's a .380, so it meets your minimum.

Cons:
No cocked and locked, and the safety is Bass-Ackwards from a 1911, and it's DA/SA, so, the manual of arms is all kinds of different, which you don't want.

Just my opinion, but my wife and I LOVE ours.

greg

 

[Zeke Menuar]

I am currently engineering a deal to send my M686 to another gentleman for either a Mak or a Bersa Thunder. I have shot several Maks and consider them on of the best values out there in a small pistol. From what I can tell there is a secret cult of Bersa followers that really like their Bersas also. Either pistol is a geat deal.

My .02 cents

ZM

 

[Murphster]

I'd cast my vote for the Sig 232. Mine gave me slide bite every so often so I sold it. But if you don't have problems with a Walther, the Sig will probably leave you unscathed. If I carried CCW, occasional slide bite or not, I'd tote the Sig. Well made, quality firearm. There are two pieces on the Sig, however, I didn't like. I think it was the slide hold open thingee. Small piece of metal on the left side of the frame held on by a demented paper clip spring thing. Demented spring thing liked to launch itself and turn invisible during cleaning. If you're a take the gun apart and clean it nut, those two pieces might be a turn off. (But I'd still carry it ccw.)

 

[oldfella]

I'd go for the new MK9 Elite 2003 in a heart beat.

 

[Tamara]

Are there any 1911 compacts (or subcompacts) with shortened grips?

All the Officer's model type guns have shorter grips than a full-size or Commander. Some guns (Kimber Compact, Baer Stinger, among others) are available with a Commander-length slide atop the shorty-Officer's frame.

 

[Jim PHL]

My two carry guns are only slightly larger than the PPK.

My first carry auto was a Kahr K40. All steel but not heavy, carries extremely well, is very accurate, 100% reliable and controlls the .40 nicely. The trigger is like an ultra-smooth DA revolver with no staging. Just a long light stroke. Actually, when I bought the Kahr, I was considering buying my Bro-In-Law's PPK. Seeing the very slight differences in size and "carryability" combined with the more powerful cartridge convinced me to go with the Kahr. I have heard/read extremely few, if any, negative comments about them.

My new carry gun is a Springfield Micro-Compact. This is a 1911-style .45 with the shorter "Officer size" grip, lightweight aluminum frame and a 3" barrel. It has a "captive dual recoil spring" assembly to improve reliability over previous short-barrelled 1911's with the standard spring set-up. I bought it because I was so happy with my first gov't model 1911 and wanted a 1911 .45 for carry. If you search the various forums you will see tons of posts bashing the reliability of the short barreled 1911's. Read them all and make your own choice. I am happy with mine and it has been 100% reliable.

Between the two overall I like the Springfield better. It carries about the same but I think is more fun at the range. I also like the idea of a full-size house and range gun and a compact carry gun with the same set-up, ammo and even share magazines. (Obviously full-size mags in the compact but not vice-versa.) My SA gov't model and the micro have the same trigger, sites, safeties, grips, etc.) Looking at both brand new the Kahr would be cheaper (around here about $575 vs. about $850) I have seen Micro's as low as $700 or so on gunbroker. I will probably be selling my K40 soon so bookmark this thread and PM me if you might be interested. Good Luck.

Jim

P.S. reagrding your consideration of a revolver: the 5-shot j-frames are only just under 1.25" at the cylinder, an inch or so at the grip and roughly 3/4" or less around the rest. Their curves make them very carry-friendly IMO. If you are looking strictly for a carry gun, give them serious consideration. The reason I am getting rid of the Kahr and my snubby is that, although they are near perfect as carry guns, they aren't as much fun at the range as my others. I love to shoot and can't afford multiple guns for range and carry. I feel I get two for one with the 'Micro'.

 

[TCD]

look at the RAMI?

 

[MrPink]

Sounds like you'd like an auto. If cost is a concern consider a quality used handgun:

HK USP compact in 40/357 or 45 will offer the same manual of arms as a 1911. While smaller than a Government 1911, its still on the big side.

HK P7 - lately PSP police refurbs have been hitting the market place. Possible to get one that has been carried but not shot a lot. I prefer the PSP over the M8 for carry because the heel mag release is sooo much flatter than the M8's side wings.

A SIG 239 is not that much bigger than a 232 and you get 40/357 options. Also keep in mind the heel mag release on the 232 is not like the P7PSP - the PSP will positively eject the mag when the release is activated. With the 232 you have to hold the release in and strip out the mag.

But if you'd consider a revolver, I really like the S&W centennial series. I carry a 340PD, but if you want cheaper a 642 can be had inexpensively.

 

[mountaindrew]

My carry peice used to be a FEG pa63 ( very similar to the walther) I mover "up" to a kel-tec p11. It is lo longer or heavier than the ppk ( Just a hair wider) Plus I get 11 rounds of 9mm. That is about double the firepower. Recoil is actually more pleasent with the p11. The icing on the cake is the low price ( about $245 here) Downsides are double action only trigger ( could be a positive depending on your perspective ) and the fact that sometimes they need either a little smoothing of parts, or a good breaking in period.

 

[pogo2]

.38 Revolver Option

Although you seemed to rule out revolvers based on width considerations, I think you should consider whether an airweight J frame S&W snubby might fill your needs.

I have a PPK (like you are discarding) and a S&W 642 airweight .38 snubby. Having carried both, I believe the snubby is easier to conceal. The .38 is admittedly wider in the cylinder than the PPK, but the cylinder is short in length and this wideness is easy to accomodate. The remaining dimensions of the revolver are very thin, such as the barrel, frame and grip, and the light weight of the 642 (15 ounces empty) is far less than the PPK, which weighs about 22 ounces. The revolver conceals easily in a pocket without pulling your pants downward, or in an IWB belt holster. The revolver is absolutely reliable, and the heavy double action trigger pull makes a manual safety unnecessary.

I really believe that an airweight .38 revolver is far superior as a deep concealment gun to any .380 semiauto.

 

[Zundfolge]

Kahr MK9 or MK40

STI Ranger if you want a shortend grip 1911.

But it really sounds like what you want is an STI LS9 or LS40

 

[dandean316]

I'm aware that a compact 1911 style pistol would suit most of my needs, but the printing I get is mostly due to grip length. Are there any 1911 compacts (or subcompacts) with shortened grips?

The Para Carry has a shortened grip. It has a 6 round mag, thin grips and a shorter grip than the officers. If you want shorter yet, check out gunsamerica for a Detonics. I have one and the grip is shorter yet than the Para Carry. So you have all steel, short grip AND a .45 for $450-600 depending on the model.

If caliber isn't a big deal, I'd check into the Kel Tec's. I use the P3AT for BUG and I haven't had a problem.

 

[mattx109]

Still much debating to do, but at the moment I think the Makarov is in the lead. The safety is similar (up for safe, down for fire) to my 1911. It's DA/SA, but I have plenty of experience with that from practice with my current P226 as well as an HK USPc I owned before it; just need some range time to get the muscle memory back in place. I'm going to stop in at my local gunshop today and get an estimate of just how much I would be paying out-of-pocket if I traded in my PPK toward the new gun.

MrPink: An HK PSP would be excellent, but as I understand it, only two hundred and something of them were made before the changeover to the PSP/P7, then the P7. Do you know offhand if anything changed aside from the designation? Lack of a heat shield on earlier guns, maybe?

I actually used to own a S&W 642 Airweight. I sold it last year, which I'm kind of regretting now, but I just couldn't seem to get used to the rear trench/front blade sights.

 

[jc2]

Just make sure you get a REAL Makarov (made in Bulgaria, Russia or East Germany)--avoid the various Hungarian and Polish handguns that are chambered for the 9x18 Makarov round but are not Makarovs.

FWIW, you should be able to get a Bulgarian (the best for the money, for sure) in excellent condition for $150 to $200. The Russians are no improvement over the Bulgarians, but they are rarer and retail usually for about $100 more than a comparable Bulgarian. The East Germans are the nicest in fit and finish (but offer no improvement in function), but they command premium prices and then some.

I generally by 9x18 Mak ammo for about $120 (including shipping) for a case (1000 rounds)--works out to about twelve cents a round.

It definitely sounds like a Mak meets your needs best in terms of reliability and cost. If you haven't already check out http://www.makarov.com.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

The pistols you are considering are considerably larger than a Walter PPK.

I replaced my Walther PPK with a Kahr MK9 as my ankle gun. Since then the Rohrbaugh has become available. If the money for that is a problem or if you prefer a SA you might look at an STI LS-9 or LS-40. I have all of the above and you will need to really hang onto the LS-40 if you go that way.

 

[Mr Jody Hudson]

I'm not up to date on Walther values, but you may be able to get a Makarov and a few cases of ammo in trade for your Walther... check values on the online gun auctions. Perhaps sell Walther online and buy Makarov and ammo online. That may likely be your best bet.

Folks here can suggest the better online auctions to use.

 

[Smaug]

Two things:

1st: I don't think you have given proper consideration to revolvers. The cylinder usually IS the deal-breaker... BUT How about a Ruger SP-101? They only have 5 shot cylinders (smaller diameter) but it is 5 shots of 357 Magnum. (or 38 +P) You can get a 2 1/4" snub or a 3 1/16" snub +. They are sturdy, reliable, and pretty much corrosion proof. (from your sweat especially)

Ruger's SP-101 page

2nd: The Makarov is not a bad idea. Everyone else has already pointed out most of the pluses, but there is one that is kind of missing. There is HUGE aftermarket support for them. They are simple enough that you can work on them yourself. They are thin, sexy, AND reliable. You will probably have to oder the 9x18 ammo online in bulk to make it feasible.

Makarov.com's page - $150

Still, the more I think of it, the more I'm convinced that in a CC gun, the power of the ammo is more important than the quantity to someone who practices. Thus, the SP-101 would get my nod. I think one 357 Magnum to the chest would do the work of 3 9x18s, and if you are attacked (esp. with a gun) it is that first shot that will really count.

It has been shown that clothing pretty well screws up the ability for hollow point ammo to expand at low velocities.

Deal with a small cylinder and pack a 357. I guaruntee you will feel safer in the long run.

I would think that by selling the PPK, you would pay for the Mak + ammo or a used SP-101 w/o ammo.

Side rant: This is not the first time I've heard of PPKs not being reliable. This blows my mind. A company like Walther, who has been making this gun for decades should have it mastered by now...

 

[arinvolvo]

i will also suggest the kahr MK or PM series...however if i wanted to "replace" a ppk...with a similar gun...i would go bersa thunder, for sheer value, accuracy and reliability.

 

[mattx109]

I'll have to take a look at some revolvers as well (the aforementioned Ruger included), and check out holsters and speedloaders.

9x18 ammunition is pretty easy to get from my usual gunshop, and while they were out of stock yesterday, the price isn't significantly higher than 9x19, which is good news if I decide on a Makarov. The owner is supposed to call me after he looks into getting a Bulgarian/Russian version. At that point I'll be able to get a firm price and compare it to other guns mentioned, such as the SIG P232, the Ruger SP-101, MK9, and Bersa.

Thanks for all the help. Plenty of options now!