Replica Arms 1848 Baby Dragoon

[expat_alaska]

Anyone here have any experience with Replica Arms pistols?

Just bought a Replica Arms (El Paso Texas) Colt 1848 Baby Dragoon with loading lever/rammer, 5 3/4" barrel (nominal 6" ?), Slim Jim grips, squareback brass TG and backstrap, long (late) steel frame, V-notch barrel lug. Bluing and case colors very good. The wood-to-metal fit is very good. Date code [XIX] (1963). It looks like the last pic in Norm Flayderman's book under the Colt 1848 Baby Dragoon, except the load lever is wrong: the screws on mine enter from the right and the rammer pivot slot is "machined" so terribly that I have to push up on the pivot end of the rammer to get it aligned with the chamber. Not good. Might have to entertain buying a Uberti rammer.

The original pistol is also described in P.L. Shumaker's book as a transition pistol between serial numbers 11,600 and 15,500 when Colt wanted to introduce the 1849 Pocket but had beaucoup 1848 parts on the stock shelves.

I have been looking for one for 4+ months (have seen a few that the seller was wanting $375+ and I declined to bid). It looked good on the auction site, but I probably paid too much for it once I got it in hand.

The wedge was beat up and I couldn't remove it without a couple of stout raps with a short wooden 1" x 2". The wedge spring had a nasty large "bump" on the right side (which I lowered) and I judiciously sanded the sides, rear, and front of the wedge of the burrs/peens so it could be removed and replaced by hand (very tight). The arbor is solid and is only about .001" short. The barrel/cylinder gap is .001" or less with the refitted wedge. I will cold blue it tomorrow.

The timing is very poor. Cocking the hammer slowly does not move the cylinder into firing position. If the hammer is cocked quickly, the cylinder lines up correctly. That makes me think the hand is too short and inertia is engaging the bolt into the stop slots. The cylinder has bolt drag lines (the cylinder has rectangular stop slots with no approaches), and has very slight peen marks in the middle of each side of the stop slots which tells me the bolt surface/width is too large and too high.

I disassembled the backstrap and grip to see and lube the internals. The hammer has a roller but the mainspring seems to be very thick. It is harder to cock this pistol than it is to cock my 2014 Pietta Navy steel .36. The trigger pull is less than 3# which I find strange.

I have no pics yet.

I have read that Replica Arms (whether in El Paso or Marietta Ohio) imported from Armi San Marcos until being bought out by Navy Arms in the early 70's. There are no markings on my pistol indicating any manufacturer. The barrel, frame, and trigger guard have matching #288 serial numbers, but no numbers elsewhere on the pistol.

I need some opinions from you learned folks insofar as my observations and as how to proceed. This pistol will not be shot but I want it to work well if possible.

I guess I should send it to Goon but I ran out of money. :banghead:

Thanks in advance,

Jim

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Carefully inspect it for maker's marks.
Look everywhere you can think of with a magnifying glass.
Here is the key to understanding what the marks mean.
http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/MBPProofmarks1.pdf
--Dawg

 

[yugorpk]

I have an original Colt 1848 baby dragoon 13K serial number range with wells fargo scene , loading lever, and 6" barrel. I've had to adapt an Italian hand to mine ( not even close to the original BTW ) . The hand assembly is relatively easy to drop out with the hammer once all the screws are out. Italian reproductions are still available. Timing is a matter of filing the tip of the hand a bit. Once you get them apart a few times it simple.

 

[expat_alaska]

Dawg,

I have looked all over this pistol for any sign of manufacturer insignia/logo/etc. and have found nothing other than the year of manufacture,
Gardone V.T. black powder proof house stamping, and Gardone proof house stamping. Only other markings are "REPLICA ARMS CO EL PASO TEXAS" on the right side of the barrel and "MADE IN ITALY" on the left side of the barrel, all above the wedge, and the serial numbers on the trigger guard, frame, and barrel lug.

 

[expat_alaska]

yugorpk,

When I slowly cock the hammer, the cylinder does not rotate far enough (by several degrees) to allow the bolt to engage the stop slot.

I am in no way an expert on this, but in my mind I cannot see how shortening the hand will allow the cylinder to rotate further.

 

[expat_alaska]

Well, as I continually (anally!) work this pistol, I am of the opinion that it sat in a closet or safe for years. The previous lubrication must have been decades ago because when I disassembled and hugely oiled it, and ran it through many cycles, the cylinder timing came true. No need for the new hand: good to go! The bolt stop still needs work. My work on fitting the wedge turned out well: it is still very tight but can be worked by hand for removal and replaced by hand, no hammering needed. The cold blue is standing up and there are very few wear surfaces.

When all is said and done, the rammer is junk as well as a couple of screws. I am hoping that Uberti parts will fit. I have an email into VTI and awaiting an answer. We will see.

Dawg:

The front face of the cylinder is fairly beat up but I was able to discern a star PN and a star with the cross-bayonetted rifles shallowly double stamped.

No other markings. Stumped. With all that I have read about Armi San Marco, they did not have a good record for marking their guns for export.

 

[yugorpk]

yugorpk,

When I slowly cock the hammer, the cylinder does not rotate far enough (by several degrees) to allow the bolt to engage the stop slot.

I am in no way an expert on this, but in my mind I cannot see how shortening the hand will allow the cylinder to rotate further.

You wouldnt be shortening that one. You'd buy a new one and shorten it. They come long for fitting. What probably happened with yours iss the hand spring was weak or stuck with lube or the cylinder star was clogged with lube.

 

[expat_alaska]

yugorpk:

What probably happened with yours iss the hand spring was weak or stuck with lube or the cylinder star was clogged with lube.

I think you are spot on. Things are coming together as we converse. Thanks for the input.

 

[StrawHat]

Replica Arms (Marietta, Ohio) imported revolvers from Uberti and from ASM. I believe the Baby Model were ASM as were some of the Dragoons and the Walker. The 1851, 1860 and 1861s were made by Uberti.

Kevin

 

[Prairie Dawg]

FWIW, I've had two of them over the years, and they were both ASM guns
--Dawg

 

[expat_alaska]

StrawHat, Dawg, Fingers, and others:

Do you think a Uberti rammer will fit even with a bit of modification? The rammer I have is a POS.





Here are pics after I refitted the wedge to allow a hand removal/reinstall. It takes a bit of lube but it is tight.

I also sanded the front face of the cylinder to allow .001" clearance between the cylinder and the barrel face still allowing the proof marks to show, and to clean the face up.

My other problems are that the hammer impacts the nipples before the hammer impacts the frame by many thousands of an inch. I have dry fired it using an 1/16" piece of moosehide and the hammer punches out holes of leather into the nipples, so I have discontinued dry-firing it with the leather. The nipples appear to be original and in fine shape.

Also, the so-called V-notch in the hammer for the rear sight is non-existant. I can judiciously file that out, but that is later down the line.

The trigger guard inner bottom surface has been mangled and I will think about squaring it up but I don't want to thin it too much.

Your thoughts?

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

If you look at pictures #3. & #13. of the frame and barrel flat under the loading lever, you will see this one is marked "S. Marco." It too is an El Paso Replica Arms:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=487017318

I would just load the cylinder off the gun and start having fun shooting it since you have so much workbench time in already.

Leave the loading lever for this winter when Alaska's heat wave is over.

 

[expat_alaska]

If you look at pictures #3. & #13. of the frame and barrel flat under the loading lever, you will see this one is marked "S. Marco." It too is an El Paso Replica Arms:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=487017318

I have been following all 1848/1849 offerings on GB for some time now and I look at the pics for info on mine. Sadly, there is no "S. Marco" or any markings on the bottom flat of the barrel, so I am not sure if it is an ASM or ASP or ?

I would just load the cylinder off the gun and start having fun shooting it since you have so much workbench time in already.

Leave the loading lever for this winter when Alaska's heat wave is over.

I could load the cylinder with the existing rammer but I would need another finger and a bit more dexterity. I just want the pistol to work properly.

As far as workbench time, I love it. I work at some small thing, set it down, go away for a bit, then look again, and evaluate. If good, I will proceed to the next phase. I'm good to go with that scenario. YMMV.

My 63-year-old eyes are terrible and don't plan on shooting anything BP, as well as my modern pistols, except if I receive a home invasion. I can see quite clearly to 15 yards.

 

[expat_alaska]

Addendum:

I found a small passage in P. L. Shumaker's book that states between #11600 to #12000

"these specimens had the added peculiarity of having the screw which connects the Lever-arm to the Rammer enter from the RIGHT side of the gun instead of from the LEFT as is the case with all subsequent types having Attached Rammer Assemblies."

Page 52...

Very strange unless Colt was experimenting with various changes.

 

[expat_alaska]

Well, I finally got the pistol together and functioning, and it was a hard row to hoe. Got together with my very talented machinist neighbor and re-tempered the original trigger/bolt spring after reconfiguring the proper dimensions to allow the bolt and the trigger to function properly.

All that is left to do is refinish the wood and I am good to go.

No pics yet.

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Jim - Here are some more pictures for your 1848 scrapbook:

1. Front Cover of the Replica Arms catalog (after it sold to the Marietta, Ohio owner.)
2. Rear cover of the same.
3. Baby Dragoon page in the same.
4. Early '60s EMF catalog page with the Baby Dragoon.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I have an ASM Baby Dragoon and it was produced 9 years after the gun in question.
It is stamped S.Marco on the left side of the frame where the Colt's Patent would be if it were original (I wish).
It has Black Powder Only and Made in Italy on the left side of the barrel with no markings on the top flat. The serial number is on the barrel lug, trigger guard and grip bottom as well the last three digits are stamped on the face of the cylinder.
The etched cylinder scene is the Texas Rangers/Commanche with a patent oval marked sideways.
All of the screws are flush with the frame except the wedge screw and the loading lever/ram screw (Which comes in from the right). The other end of the crews are also flush with the frame.
I don't have any pictures of my Baby Dragoon but will take some this weekend.
Here is a link to some interesting reading about the original Baby Dragoon.
Click of the magnifying glass on the left to enlarge the print:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TH...ved=0CCwQ6AEwA2oVChMIs7atxbPXyAIVRyqICh1_lQ8c