Replica or Reproduction?

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junkman_01

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Something that has bothered me through the years is the use of the words 'replica' and 'reproduction'. I have always thought that a replica gun was one of those zinc, non-firing things that might be purchased a decorator detail. In my mind, a reproduction gun is a working, firing, newly made gun, that is a copy of something from the past.
What is your take on this? :confused:
 
My other hobby is automotive related. If you want to get real picky about terminology, I'd define reproduction as a strict adherence to everything good and bad to the original. Finish, fit, obsolete caliber, design flaws, etc. Replica would be "looks basically right", but with some improvements. Like the LeMats in 44 cal.
But the two terms are almost interchangeable. I'm not that picky on guns. I refer to pretty much all Italian copys as reproduction. On cars I'm much more picky. It takes a lot of effort to really do reproduction and restoration stuff vs. modification.
 
A firearm is a firearm to me no matter if it was made in 1840 or 2010, I treat them all the same.
Actually, the federal government doesn't consider BP guns as normal firearms, but a differennt class; 'antique firearms'.
Yes I am picky about terminology.
 
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My other hobby is automotive related. If you want to get real picky about terminology, I'd define reproduction as a strict adherence to everything good and bad to the original. Finish, fit, obsolete caliber, design flaws, etc. Replica would be "looks basically right", but with some improvements. Like the LeMats in 44 cal.
But the two terms are almost interchangeable. I'm not that picky on guns. I refer to pretty much all Italian copys as reproduction. On cars I'm much more picky. It takes a lot of effort to really do reproduction and restoration stuff vs. modification.
I agree.

The Italians make so many revolvers that never were made back in the day, technically they are not a reproduction of anything but a replica of the time period. I use both terms and most collectors I know use both.
 
The "Replica" Industry

After doing research into the “replica” percussion revolvers I am now approaching this whole field as a new industry with new designs and variations much better than the original models they were copying. Not as a “Copy Cat” of original firearms.

This industry actually started back in the 1940’s when William B. Edwards was working at Colt and discovered a store room with many old original Colt parts for the 1851 Navy. He ask Colt executives if they were ever going to start making this revolver again. The answer was a laugh and “of coarse not”. “What are you going to do with these parts”, ask Bill. “Throw them away”, was the response. From that Mr. Edwards fabricated two 1851 Navy revolvers that he then used to shoot. One was sold to a friend and the other he kept. It was numbered “82” on the frame. This was the revolver that was smuggled into Italy and used by Uberti and Gregorelli to start the manufacturing of the first 1851 Navy revolver that was imported and distributed by Val Forgett’s new company, Navy Arms. The Navy Arms 1851 Navy Serial #1 is now in the RPRCA collection. This was originally given to William B. Edwards by Val Forgett and Uberti in graditute for the work he accomplished in actually starting this whole industry.

In the beginning the targeted market was the shooters. However, with the availability of custom engraved revolvers also offered by Navy Arms, engraving done in Italy, it is obvious that the market was also the potential collectors that these revolver might interest. Most all the subsequent manufacturers/importers also offered engraved and “special edition” issues that were also aimed at the collector. So much for the narrow opinion that, “replicas are only for shooting, not collecting”.

This new “industry” evolved very quickly into a whole new era of percussion revolvers. The shooters continued to direct the market with their opinions and “wants”. The first evolution by demand was the 1851 Navy in .44cal., not a “real” historically correct “reproduction” of an original Colt.

As prices increased the next “want” was a cheaper version of these percussion revolvers which resulted in the introduction of the brass frame to original Colt designs. The brass frame was part of the original production in the form of the Griswold & Gunnison imported by Navy Arms for the Confederate re-enactor. The brass frame was then introduced on the 1851 Navy (this would be the same as a Confederate Schneider & Glassick but with an engraved cylinder, which I doubt the Confederate manufacturers would be inclined to waste their time in doing), the Baby Dragoons and Pocket models, the Remington, etc.

Other variations came into being as a result of demand and on the part of the importers/distributors that were now in a vast, highly competitive market to increase sales. The increased sales were aimed at, yes the collector. Also, the fun shooters who want something new and different to “Wow” his friends at the range or in the field. One example is the 3rd Model Dragoon with an 18” barrel that came with a shoulder stock with steel hardware and a holster to fit it all into. These were marketed by EMF and Navy Arms. The Remington equipped with target sights was one of the first and most popular variation even till today. Stainless Steel was introduced on Colt, Remington, and Roger & Spencer revolvers.

As can be seen from the evolution of the “replica” revolver, this is a whole new category of firearm and it will have to be approached from that stand point. It is not the “reproduction” of only historically correct firearms but the introduction of many new and original revolvers that may have borrowed their designs from the old originals but has gone far beyond any of the original designs.

For the persons bothered by terminology there are certain facts that have to be lived with. Terms that have been used concerning these revolvers are “fakes”, “counterfeit”, “reproduction”, “copies”, “replicas”, etc. However, the term “replica” seems to be the word that has come into the most common usage and will remain so. Different authors have used different terms but these terms are identified by the author as to their meaning. The need to identify certain terms by the author is a requirement in any research paper.
 
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The US Code defining an antique firearm uses the word replica. That would seem to indicate that any antique firearm that wasn't manufactured in or before 1898 is by definition a replica under Federal law.

See also Title 18 USC, Sec. 921 (a)(1)(16) "The term 'antique firearm' means -

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm describe in subparagraph (A) if such replica -

(i) is....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1085021&postcount=12
 
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"Actually, the federal government doesn't consider BP guns as normal firearms, but a different class; 'antique firearms'.
Yes I am picky about terminology. "

Oh, I know that well enough after years of having the FFL, and it's the only reason I can still get them sent to me direct here in New York without using it, at least for now. I was talking about my own thinking, any of my Colt .44's could blow off my toes as easy as my modern .357 magnum could so all my firearms get treated with the same careful respect no matter if they are a modern copy of a 150 year old revolver or a brand new Ruger. I don't much like the term "replica" , or "reproduction" when applied to firearms no matter if it's true or not, I find that in the minds of some people, mostly ones new to BP revolvers, the terms mean the revolver is somehow less of a firearm, and then treat them as such. To some people ( none here to be sure) replica, or reproduction mean "toy" just because the powder, and ball are loaded loose and a cap is used it's somehow less dangerous than a revolver that shoots modern metallic cartridges. We all have seen the rusty, battered relics of what were once nice Pietta, Uberti, or other Italian made revolvers for sale on the auction sites or flea markets, someone didn't consider them worth taking care of properly, after all they are just reproductions not the real thing right? When I show off items from my BP collection I always say " this is my Uberti made 1847 Walker, or Pietta made 1858 Starr" If asked I will say that they are continuations of older historic designs.
I once had someone ask my why I bothered playing with toy's when I had a safe full of real guns, I was holding a brass frame Pietta 1851 Navy at the time and briefly considered shooting him in the knee with it, but self control got the better of me.
 
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When I show off items from my BP collection I always say " this is my Uberti made 1847 Walker, or Pietta made 1858 Starr" If asked I will say that they are continuations of older historic designs.
I once had someone ask my why I bothered playing with toy's when I had a safe full of real guns, I was holding a brass frame Pietta 1851 Navy at the time and briefly considered shooting him in the knee with it, but self control got the better of me.
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:what:I love your logic here and I think I will adopt it too. :D
 
what would you call the ROA?(besides the best made BP revolver) its not like anything made before or since. eastbank.
 
It is neither a replica nor a reproduction. It is a modern revolver using a 150 year old ignition/ammo system. I love mine too!
 
eastbank said:
what would you call the ROA?

I would still call it a replica of a cap & ball revolver because it replicates the method of percussion ignition of the originals.
Just because a few changes were made doesn't mean that it's not a replica in function.
 
Using your criteria then, what would you call a Ruger Super Blackhawk? A 'replica' .44 Magnum? How about an AR-15? A 'replica' M-16? I don't buy your logic at all.
 
It can only serve a purpose which is no good to the antique gun owning community and their rights to bear arms without many Federal regulations to oppose the Federal legal definition of what a replica is.
In some of the former East Bloc countries and others where the definition of what "replicas" are includes many restrictions, they can only buy and use exact clones of the originals and they set a cutoff date for what clone designs are allowed.
Since we have the most free society in the world, we employ the most liberal definition in support of our 2nd Amendment rights.
The USA has a very large tent with the most freedoms for a reason which hinges on the most basic & practical interpretation of how a gun functions and operates.
A semi-auto is a semi-auto, a revolver is a revolver, and a cap & ball revolver is a cap & ball revolver.
That's the logic of American freedom.
 
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When in doubt, go to...The Patent.
Apparently Ruger didn't think of the ROA as a replica or reproduction of anything. It was an improvement, as the Walker was an improvement over the Paterson.
This patent seems to be for the loading mechanism. I didn't find a patent for the ROA itself, but this is pretty interesting.
Check it out, read it, then decide:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=yX...ource=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=true

Look at the references cited: Colt, Walch, Starr, Remington.
Where's a lawyer when you need one.

This one talks about improving the hand spring (pawl)
http://www.google.com/patents?id=72...pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=Ruger revolver&f=true
 
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junkman to clarify the m16 is actually a reproduction of the ar 15 for the military:D and the ruger superblackhawk is a metallic cartridge firearm that is single action, 44 magnum is a cartridge. the ROA is a reproduction(aka replica) of a Remington 1858 style with some improvements. hope this helps
 
thank you BPrevolver. I knew Bill Edwards and visited him at his home in Virginia. I knew he was a writer and editor, and knew he had some role in the getting replicas made, but not the details you provided. He passed away now and his wife let me have a bust of George Washington that he made. He became quite an artist and sculpted famous personalities (generals and figures in American history). One TSA person didn't recognize the bust of Washington but his lady partner did. They still swabbed it for explosives.
 
There you go trying to put me down.
That was not my intent. I apologize if that's how you understood me. I am simply curious as to your motive in asking the question. One way to interpret such a series of posts is that the OP is being argumentative, but that's not necessarily a fair assumption. I figured it would be better to ask than to just assume something that may be way off base.
 
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