Retention holsters - Fad, Fiction or Fact?

[Smurfslayer]

Posts in the various "Open Carry" threads, like this one:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93286
brought up the point that retention should be a concern to anyone open carrying. Obviously, retention is not just equipment, but also awareness, skill, proficiency, etc. Since we will never reach a consensus on the propriety of open carry, let's not use this thread to discuss that here.

What about "retention" holsters? I can see all the marketing stuff and that's fine and dandy, but I'd like to hear what people with experience have to say.

Worth the extra $$$ ?

Penalty in time on the draw stroke ?
I draw faster from the Fobus than the IWB...not by that much... and obviously my drawing from concealment is a tad slower than open...


Miscellaneous pros & cons ?

Recommendations ?

I'm a citizen, not LE (which in my field means less than or equal to )
however, I practice, regularly, including draw, present, shoot, etc... I think that retention is a legitimate concern for all who carry, but my observation of open carry here in VA - not many people even spend the money for a gun belt, and I've seen a lot of $500+ dollar guns in nylon belt clip holsters with velcro draw through retention straps... And more power to them... I consider it worth looking into to prevent my gun from becoming somebody else's... I've got $$$ to spend on 2 holsters, 2 identical primary carry guns, a gun belt, holsters for a couple of my reserve carry pieces, 2-4 hundred rounds of ammo per week (various calibers) ... I can at least consider a retention holster, as well...

Thanks!

 

[Devonai]

I've lost my carry piece twice. Once, when I was running and the pistol hopped out of an open-top nylon belt-slide holster. The second time was while digging my buddy's car out of the mud and the thumb break on my horizontal shoulder holster came undone.

The first time I managed to catch the pistol before it emerged from my clothing. The second time my pistol took a bath in the soupy mud. Fortunately neither time was anybody present who gave a care.

So, a holster with some kind of retention (a minimum of a thumb break) and that has been proven to work during physical activity is a must.

When I openly carry (in the field only), I use a Bianchi M12 military flap holster. The draw is slow but it offers great protection from the elements and from grab attempts.

 

[Coronach]

Probably not worth it for concealed carry, but I consider it a must for open carry, especially as the only way I do open carry is uniformed patrol.

Yes, weapon retention is all about awareness and technique, but lets face it...the weak link in all of this is awareness. You can't be 100% aware 24/7, and even if you are, there are situations where someone is going to get within gun-grab distance. Failure to acknowledge this is akin to living in Fantasyland. Certainly we try to minimize it, and certainly we strive to make sure it never happens with someone who gives us the heeby-jeebies, but if you think that you can do it with awareness alone, you have never walked through a crowd before.

A good retention holster helps prevent weapon takeaways. Like anything, it is a tool. No tool is perfect. If the cop can get the gun out, so can the Bad Guy. Good retention holsters play with grip angle and draw stroke to make it easy for the guy wearing it to draw, and hard for anyone else. There are guys who know far more about this than me (several holster makers on this board, for instance), so I'll leave the specifics to them.

Does it slow you down? A trifle. The main thing is practice. First you need to unlearn the old way of drawing, then learn the new way. Ever see film of the Kehoe shootout in Ohio? One of our State Troopers can be seen just a-ripping and a-pulling on his new retention holster. In the heat of the moment he forgot that he was not wearing a Level 1 holster anymore, but was in fact wearing a Level 3. He had hit the thumb break, but had not hit the finger break and rocked the gun back. It stayed put.

This speaks less to the quality/utility of the holster and more to this trooper's level of training with the new equipment. It doesn't have to be second nature, it has to be first nature. If he had practiced more, he would have been fine- its the same holster I use.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Actually, why is this in L&P? I'm gonna move it to Pistols. Smurf, if you want it back in L&P, PM me.

Mike

 

[sendec]

Hardware Solution to Software Problem

For LE use, IMHO, retention holsters are a crutch at best and a hazard at worst. Weapons retention is the responsibility of the carrier, not the holster. I far prefer a simple Level One holster, or a plain thumbreak on a properly fitted holster, and good retention training, to any of the more complicated units, which in my opinion are cumbersome for an efficient draw. I have also found that some of the more highly retentive holsters are well nigh impossible to draw from in certain positions that one may find oneself in on the ground.

You cannot buy safety.

 

[sendec]

I was'nt going to mention the Kehoe shooting......

 

[Majic]

All of my OWB hoslters are thumb break models. The extra time needed to pop the thumb break is probably as fast or faster than grabbing and/or sweeping a cover garment out of the way. So essentially no time is lost between the two carry methods on the draw.
A big plus for the thumb break is that if someone does tries to get the handgun the snap don't readily open unless the tab is pushed toward you. A turn of your body, which would be a natural reaction, would reposition that snap and the handgun away from the attacker.

 

[Smurfslayer]

So far...

the consensus seems to be that it's a "positive aspect" but certainly no cure all..

C, I meant this to be in GD, but it's fine where it's at now; I must've been in L&P last...

I'm not a terribly big fan of thumb breaks, preferring an open top design.
Safariland's 0702 would be something I'd think about. It's a paddle, so easy on easy off would be beneficial to me; considering I do open carry because I have to, not to make a statement.

I would think of a retention holster the way I think of a motorcycle lock, something designed to make it more difficult to take, and buy time.

Thanks for the comments so far...

 

[Majic]

Also if things get energetic the thumb break will keep the handgun in the holster, not slipping out and skidding off somewhere.

 

[Powderman]

Does it slow you down? A trifle. The main thing is practice. First you need to unlearn the old way of drawing, then learn the new way. Ever see film of the Kehoe shootout in Ohio? One of our State Troopers can be seen just a-ripping and a-pulling on his new retention holster. In the heat of the moment he forgot that he was not wearing a Level 1 holster anymore, but was in fact wearing a Level 3. He had hit the thumb break, but had not hit the finger break and rocked the gun back. It stayed put.

Wasn't that in UT? I thought it was, but I could be mistaken...

Also, in the initial exchange of gunfire, did the Kehoe brother who put on the vest get hit? I think the trooper fired about 5 rounds, at about 7-10 yards.

 

[Coronach]

It was in rural southern Ohio.

There were two cops at scene, a County Deputy and a OSP Trooper. AFAIK, the Deputy got off the vast majority of the rounds and did most of the work in that instance. I'm not sure how many rounds the Trooper got off.

I guess Sendec and I will have to agree to disagree. I agree that they can be used as a crutch ("Gee...I can just completely ignore people now, they can't grab my gun! Its like magic!"), but I think that most officers still stay alert for grab potential. There are, however, lost of scenarios where you just can't keep people away. Walking through a crowd is one of them. Too many people, too many opportunities for a weapon strip. I'll take whatever help I can get to keep that puppy holstered, unless I want it to come out.

JMO,
Mike

 

[sturmruger]

I have a buddy that is a reserve cop. He bought a Uncle Mike's retention holster for his Glock. It sure was slick to use. If I was a cop I would definetly want a holster that made it more difficult for people to take my gun. The holster I used required the gun be rotated somewhat before it would it could be pulled out.

If I were to do a lot of open carry I think I would look into one of those new Bianch Lock holsters. They look pretty slick.

On a regular fobus holster with a shot timer I can usually get a shot off in around 1.5 seconds. With the retention holster I would anticipate it adding around 3/4 of a second.

 

[copaup]

At work I use a safariland SSIII, which is IMHO the best thing going for a duty rig. Its level 3 with a thumbreak, a finger snap, and a lock inside the holster that holds the gun in place. Sounds like a pain in the rear right? Actually, after the 20 gazillion draw strokes I've made from that thing I can draw from it every bit as fast as I can from an open top rig. The snaps are positioned in such a way that my hand hits them almost automatically and the lock releases as part of my normal drawstroke. It is an awesome setup if you are willing to spend the time getting proficient with it. Cops get in fights. Fights usually end up with us rolling around on the ground. Even if the BG doesn't grab for the gun, I want every bit of security I can get that that roscoe doesn't come flying out while I am using both hands to persuade the scumbag to comply with my verbal instructions. But then, I like magazine safties on duty weapons for the same reason.

In plainclothes, I still like retention holsters, for the same reasons. I usually use a safariland 701 that works about the same way as my duty rig, but is a heck of a lot less bulky.

Off duty, well, I'm supposed to use a retention holster per PnP, but I won't lie and say I always do so. If I'm off duty, the risk of fights goes WAY down and I'm carrying concealed. I've got a pretty even split between thumbreaks and open top holsters for my Sig 239. The deciding factor as often as not is if I am going anywhere that I might have to be the police while I'm there.

I think retention holsters are great if you are going to find yourself in a position where you might engage in a violent struggle, and are willing to devout the time to developing the muscle memory so that the draw is automatic. Carrying a weapon is serious business to me, so that time is a must. Besides, it gives you a great excuse when your spouse comes in and finds you doing quick draws at the TV. At the very least, you should get some training on how to go hand to hand and weapon retention. A fight, or a gun grab leading to a fight are both far more likely than a shootout. Sadly, the physical aspect of combat is often overlooked by shooters, especially the newer ones.

 

[1911Ron]

The more retention devices on a holster will slow down your draw,as opposed to open top holsters. I use a Safariland thigh holster at work, it has a bail that you push down on and push forward, it also has a tension screw that i don't use. It is fast and has good retention when i rest my hand over it.My weapons retention is being aware of my surroundings and using a good holster and get training in retention.

 

[Landric]

I carry my duty weapon in a Safariland SSIII 070. I like the holster, and after some practice I can draw just as fast as I could when I carried in a level I holster.

IMO, the biggest disadvantage to the 070 is it is almost impossible for me to draw with my weak hand. When wearing all my duty gear and vest, reaching around and trying to draw with my left hand is very hard. I can do it, but it takes forever.

I'm switching departments this month, and the issue holster there is the Safariland 295, which is a level II holster. I'm OK with that, but I don't much like the fact that I am used to rocking back to draw, and the 295 requires a forward rock to draw. I guess I will get used to it though.

If I were to open carry off-duty, I think I would use something like a Safariland 701 or 702. I don't, so I generally use open-top IWB holsters for off-duty carry.

 

[copaup]

"IMO, the biggest disadvantage to the 070 is it is almost impossible for me to draw with my weak hand. When wearing all my duty gear and vest, reaching around and trying to draw with my left hand is very hard. I can do it, but it takes forever."

True. Thats why if I were going to violate dept policy and carry a backup weapon I would carry it in my weak hand pocket, or located for a weak hand draw on my bodyarmour. I of course would never dream of violating a stupid policy...

 

[TarpleyG]

Are they worth the extra $$$? IMO, yes. The idea of marketing 'retention holsters' is a joke. A properly made holster, with or without a thumb break should retain your gun anyway. Note than one poster had his gun fall out twice. Once from a nylon holster and the other from a shoulder holster. There is a reason for that. They are poorly fitted to the gun. You could hang me upside down and shake me and my gun won't come out. I don't have a thumb break either. I have aproperly made holster made specifically for the type of gun I carry.

Greg

 

[digitalpaladin10]

This looks interesting...

Click Me

 

[carpettbaggerr]

A properly made holster, with or without a thumb break should retain your gun anyway.

Will a holster without a thumbreak keep the gun while a badguy has both hands on the grip and is pulling with all his strength? Because the Safariland SSIII 070 will. There's a reason cops wear Level 3 holsters -- and it's not marketing hype.

 

[LAK]

I have carried in an open duty holster with the old style snap strap, and more recently with thumb breaks; for a duty gun I would not want any more than that.

In a state that allows open carry I used the thumb break arrangement and was quite happy with that. For field carry I might prefer a full flap holster for the protection it affords the gun. But concealed I think a good quality/fitting holster is quite sufficient and the best idea.

 

[Coronach]

'm switching departments this month, and the issue holster there is the Safariland 295, which is a level II holster. I'm OK with that, but I don't much like the fact that I am used to rocking back to draw, and the 295 requires a forward rock to draw. I guess I will get used to it though.

Dude, make sure you practice constantly with this new rig....because if you don't, the first time you need to draw that puppy fast you will look like the OSP Trooper in the Kehoe shootout. You will be a-rockin it backwards and a-pullin, and it will be just sitting there.

Practice!

Mike