Manual Safeties and Retention Holsters

[Plan2Live]

You don’t have to hang out here long before you read a post from someone who is adamantly against manual safeties on a defensive gun. The general line of thinking seems to be something like “manual safeties are unnecessary and prone to failure just when you need the gun the most” or “I’ll never carry a gun with a manual safety”. But I don’t hear those same concerns about retention holsters. Isn’t a retention device on a holster simply an off-gun manual safety and just as likely to fail just when you need the gun the most?

If you are adamant about no manual safety on your gun, do you carry it in a retention holster?

Since this is a comparison of manual safeties to retention devices hopefully the thread can remain here.

 

[JTQ]

I carry guns with manual safeties, but not in a holster with a retention device.

I suppose if I were open carrying, I'd probably look for some kind of retention device, but I don't feel their needed for a concealed carry holster.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If I were to open carry I would use a holster with some kind of retention to keep somebody from just running up behind me and snatching it. I don't feel any need for extra retention on a concealed holster. You're already ahead of the game by no one knowing you have it.

I also see the manual safety/retention holster as two different safety issues. The manual safety is mainly a hedge against improper handling on your part, while a retention holster is to either keep the gun from falling out of the holster or being grabbed by someone else.

 

[AK103K]

The first couple of holsters I used when I started carrying had thumb breaks. At the time, I carried a Colt Government Model. I was constantly finding the thumb safety off at the end of the day, due to the strap knocking it off.

At first I tried notching the strap, then I cut it off all together (that was over 40 years ago, and the last time I used a holster with one).

Even without the strap, I still would find the thumb safety had been knocked off sometime during the day (not as often as the holsters with a the strap though), and that was the case with every 1911 I carried. Not that it really matters, they were in a holster.

These days, I carry Glocks. Dont miss the safety at all, not that it really matters. Most of my holsters are Blade Techs, that do have a mild form of retention (tension on the trigger guard), but I also use others that have none. On occasion, I also carry them without a holster. Im not scared there either.

 

[barnbwt]

There's two different issues at play here, safety and retention. While a proper holster can function as a safety, the retention aspect also serves a function that a handgun safety (manual or automatic) does not. Namely, impeding an unintentional draw, presumably by a thief/attacker. Side benefit of keeping the gun in the holster a bit more reliably.

The manual vs. automatic safety debate is a whole other can of worms. You could argue (convincingly) that a holster is itself a passive safety (disabled in order to bring the gun onto target) while a retention device is a manual safety (requires conscious display of intentional motor skills before the gun may be brought onto target). Some guns don't have manual safeties, and can't really be retained all that well. The R51 for example has only a single grip safety lever comprising the entire back of the grip frame; hard to wrap a strap over it without disabling your grip safety, and not many other good places to grab onto besides the trigger guard (fraught with risks of contacting the trigger, no doubt).

"The general line of thinking seems to be something like “manual safeties are unnecessary and prone to failure just when you need the gun the most” or “I’ll never carry a gun with a manual safety”. But I don’t hear those same concerns about retention holsters."
I would challenge the whole premise of this thread, btw. I have found most folks who bother to explain why they forgo manual safeties tend to dislike anything more complicated than a concealed pancake holster. Now, for open carry, the whole premise of a non-retention holster begins to look less and less attractive for a number of reasons, with the result being a compromise between practicality and preference.

TCB

 

[JTQ]

I have found most folks who bother to explain why they forgo manual safeties tend to dislike anything more complicated than a concealed pancake holster.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the majority of SERPA holsters are carrying Glocks inside them.

 

[PabloJ]

You don’t have to hang out here long before you read a post from someone who is adamantly against manual safeties on a defensive gun. The general line of thinking seems to be something like “manual safeties are unnecessary and prone to failure just when you need the gun the most” or “I’ll never carry a gun with a manual safety”. But I don’t hear those same concerns about retention holsters. Isn’t a retention device on a holster simply an off-gun manual safety and just as likely to fail just when you need the gun the most?

If you are adamant about no manual safety on your gun, do you carry it in a retention holster?

Since this is a comparison of manual safeties to retention devices hopefully the thread can remain here.

I have no use for manual safeties or retention holsters. Professionals choice is S&W 642 loaded with soft lead .38Spl cowboy loads (plain cardboard box Winchester brand is favored). Retention holsters are for law enforcement and for the military personnel.

 

[BlindJustice]

I have 3 1911s and three Milt Sparks holsters, the gun is retained
by the fit it has in the holster - I think the O.P. is talking thumb
break 'retention' old school stuff for DUty (lEO or military)

I don't have any semi-auto without a manual safety, 3 1911 variants
and a CZ 75B. So, t's draw flick off the safety, get a sight pic and
THEN acquire the trigger really simple

Most AD/ND via striker fired semi-auto are cheap or no holster and
upon re-hoslstering or drawing the gun oops bang

R-

 

[Deaf Smith]

Anything is trainable. With good training you can reflexively take safeties off, or on. Press special latches on retention holsters to.

But it takes someone willing to train often and hard.

Few will.

Deaf

 

[guyfromohio]

Retention holster while riding motorcycles. Probably don't even need it then.

 

[X-Rap]

Yea, I use thumb breaks or pressure type Kydex retention holsters when on a bike, horse, atv, boat or bushwacking, never want to get where I'm going and find something missing.

 

[hAkron]

I like a retention holster for semi open carry when I'm jogging. I don't want the gun to fall out, or be grabbed out by anybody other than me.

 

[rskent]

I guess I’m a belt and suspender kind of guy.
Often I carry a Sig 238 in a belt holster with a thumb break. Yea, I know its only a 380. Get over it. The thumb safety is just there, like a 1911. Its just part of the gun for better or worse. It shoots good and I can hit stuff with it.

As far as the holster. A belt holster is very comfortable. The thumb break may not be needed but its not really in the way so why not. It makes me feel comfortable that I am not going to loose my little pistol on my bike or in my truck
or just doing stuff. Its also nice to be able to sit on the john without having to worry if you gun is gonna go sliding across the floor when my pants are around my ankles. Not the best time to go chasing after a loose gun.

I’ve gotten used to the thumb break belt holster so much that I’ve even gotten one for my G26. Carries pretty good and doesn't pinch my jelly roll.

 

[barnbwt]

"I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the majority of SERPA holsters are carrying Glocks inside them."
...or any holster, for that matter, especially if you count all the identical designs floating around now. SERPA's are duty holsters (possibly the most common type) and Glock pistols are the most popular duty weapon; neither is necessarily indicative of anything other than basic suitability for the job and govt procurement preferences.

TCB

 

[jeepnik]

Manual safties? Yes, no and maybe.
Holsters with retention devices? Yes, no and maybe.

The answer to what I use depends on which firearm strikes my fancy that day, and which holster I put it in.

I regularly carry everything for revolvers to glocks to 1911's. Been doing this for nearly 40 years. Haven't had any issues yet. Then again, I'm not stuck on what's trendy or the "experts" conclude is best. Oh, ever wonder how these experts became experts? Usually they just anoint themselves.

Often times if you look into these folks that know all about gun fighting, they've never been in one. I'll listen to the words of Fairbairn, Cirillo and Jordan.

 

[joe_security]

I use a Safariland 0701 with my 3953. The premise is that we have muggers here that try to knock people out cold, or at least hit and stun them into compliance. I have the muscle memory to draw from this holster yet others struggle to remove the pistol from it. I fully realize that most people don't want anything impeding the draw in an all out emergency. It depends on the concealing garments. I don't open carry so its not an issue. If I did open carry I would select a Safariland ALS holster.

 

[rg1]

Had to modify my thumb break to keep the snap from pushing off the dual manual safety on a Sig 220 R Carry pistol. Having some leather working supplies I moved the snap and now it prevents the safety lever from moving. Haven't had it happen since? The strap should protect the safety rather than pushing it off. Lack of detail and making holsters to fit different models with different features by the manufacturers.

 

[JTQ]

barnbwt wrote,
...or any holster, for that matter, especially if you count all the identical designs floating around now. SERPA's are duty holsters (possibly the most common type) and Glock pistols are the most popular duty weapon; neither is necessarily indicative of anything other than basic suitability for the job and govt procurement preferences.

Suppose we disregard all of the duty use of Glock and SERPA. Certainly, I have no official numbers, just spending a few years on various forums, this one included, and the arguments are all the same. Maybe you've herd these before.

In the SERPA threads, guy will argue working the SERPA lock is a training issue, and if you're not smart enough to operate the SERPA lock, maybe you shouldn't be carrying a firearm.

Next we move to the Glock thread, where the same guy will argue you don't need a safety on your gun, the only safety you need is between your ears. If you're not smart enough to have a gun without a safety, maybe you shouldn't be carrying a firearm.

Now on to the Beretta 92FS/M9/1911 thread, where the same guy will tell you he won't carry a gun with a safety, because when "you know what hits the fan", you're going to forget to get the safety off, and you'll get yourself killed.

It's all a fascinating circle of logic. Smart enough to work the SERPA lock, smart enough to not need a gun with a safety, yet not smart enough to operate a gun with a safety.

 

[Red Cent]

It would be interesting to note the age of the responders to this post. I still try to wipe off the safety on my Glock. My edc is a Commander.

 

[AK103K]

I still try to wipe off the safety on my Glock.

I noticed I did this for awhile with my SIG's and to some extent with my Glocks, depending on the holster used. Not so much anymore.

My brain still seems to know what a 1911 feels like and what its supposed to do when Im shooting one though, and the safety always is off without thought when I draw the gun.

It also seems to understand that a DA trigger is a DA trigger, and what to do when it encounters one too.

With any of them, its just a matter of putting the time in to train your brain and muscles, and they will do the rest as needed.

 

[jeepnik]

Contrary to what some pundits say, you can switch from one action type / brand / caliber to others and with practice you will be able to use any with equal aplomb.

But like I say, I'm not an expert. I leave that to the "experts". Those that are legends in their own mind.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

I have found most folks who bother to explain why they forgo manual safeties tend to dislike anything more complicated than a concealed pancake holster.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the majority of SERPA holsters are carrying Glocks inside them.

The most widely discounted holster system (Blackhawk offers some dang nice incentives for carrying their line) with one of the most widely available firearms (designed to be easily operated by Austrian conscripts)? Nooooooo, say it isn't so!