Retro Carry Guns & The Stigma Surrounding Them

[jar]

Here's the key unstated part: mostly, they were carrying illegally. Depending on the part of the country, the local authorities didn't care, as long as you fit the definition of "good ole boy."

I experienced a great example of just that.

Long long ago in a time far far away my wife and I were living in Southern California. I was designing CableTv systems and my wife was a legal assistant. It was summer 1967 and Reagan had just signed the Mulford Act created specifically because members of the Black Panthers had peacefully exercised their 2A rights by carrying loaded weapons in public.

My wife's boss had been appointed to represent guy who was tried and convicted for committing murder and at the sentencing hearing had said he'd kill the judge and the prosecutor and his attorney (my wife's boss) and pointing directly at my wife "and you too missy". Later he escaped and the police warned us we really needed to be armed, aware and cautious since about all they could do would be to drive by our neighborhood more often. When I pointed out that carrying my gun was a direct violation of the law they assured me that law was not meant for folk like me.

 

[trackskippy]

Thats great and all, as long as youre part of the "approved" class.

We are "supposed" to have rights, and class, or parties, buddies, whatever, are not supposed to get to decide if you can or you cant, or that they "may" let you slide.

Our form government isnt "supposed" to work like that. Really makes you wonder about the "rights" part too, doesn't it? We either have them or we dont, and it doesn't matter what kind of "folk" you might be. Unless of course, you are good Deutsche folk, and party members. Ja?

 

[golden]

Mr. MOISIN,

I think the reason many of us now look down on the choices of our predecessors is that many of them made BAD CHOICES, by today's standards.. At the time, with what was known about the effectiveness of handguns for self defense and the type of ammo choices, you had few options.

I know that some of the law enforcement officers in the "roaring 20's" took to large caliber revolvers and .45ACP pistols while others just went straight to rifles, shotguns and sub-machine guns. They knew that they needed something other than a .38 snubnose or .32ACP for when there was a real chance of having to shoot to make and arrest. These gunfights were the reason for the .38-44, .357 magnum and .38 Super rounds.
For civilians, not chasing bank robbers across state lines, knowledge of what to carry was probable very limited.

Anyone carrying a derringer probably did not know that the NRA banned them from advertising in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine because of the accidental discharges or that they were so underpowered in the original .41 rimfire load. Some simply choose to ignore those problem, if they knew about it.
I have read some postings, in this forum of people who think derringers are a good choice to carry today, so it was not just a lack of general knowledge back then.

Also, how many people carried .38 S&W (not .38 Special) or .32 S&W snubnose revolvers, both very underpowered.
However, Boson Police Department had issued .38 S&W revolvers to its detectives as late as the 1960's according to one source and NYPD issued the .32 S&W long as its first standard issue revolver, when Theodore ROOSEVELT was in charge.

Many trusted their lives to COLT or SAVAGE .32ACP and other semi-autos. They are, when compared to a 9m.m. loaded with premium hollow points, very underpowered.
The guns themselves were very well made, reliable and as effective as you were going find if you did not want to carry a large bore revolver or .45ACP pistol.

The British adopted the .38 S&W when the U.S. Army was demanding a .45ACP, so it was not just civilians and amateurs' making mistakes. The U.S. Army learned from their mistakes after the catastrophic adoption of the .38 Long Colt revolver, just before the turn of the century. With that well known experience, the British still adopted a .38 revolver.

However, in the 1910's, 20's and on to the 1960's, no one really studied this issue, so really only a few people knew. It was the many highly publicised gunfights in the 1960's that made ammo effectiveness an area to be studied.
Note, before World War II, the .32ACP vastly outsold the more effective (relatively speaking) .380ACP. Colt sold at least four times as many 1903 Pocket Hammerless models in .32ACP as they sold of the 1908 model which was the exact same gun in .380ACP.

I will admit to carrying a .32ACP because of a concealment requirement, but I understood the increased risk of a weak round and planned accordingly. I would rather have a .25ACP than no gun at all.

These days, it is much easier to find an effective defensive handgun. Since the adoption of +P ammo, the .38 Special had gained a much better reputation.

Jeff COOPER railed against the 9m.m., but modern ammo effectiveness, negates many of his arguments for choosing the .45ACP over the 9m.m.
If you don't agree, you still have a choice. You can usually choose a .40 S&W or even a 10m.m. and get the advantages of the 9m.m. pistol with a bigger bullet.

BUFFALO BORE has even tried to make the .38 S&W an effective round.
I remember the debate over the .38 Special in the 1970 and 1980 time period with many horror stories of failure to stop shootings.

Things change. People learn.

Just my experience.

JIm

 

[AlexanderA]

My wife's boss had been appointed to represent guy who was tried and convicted for committing murder and at the sentencing hearing had said he'd kill the judge and the prosecutor and his attorney (my wife's boss) and pointing directly at my wife "and you too missy". Later he escaped and the police warned us we really needed to be armed, aware and cautious since about all they could do would be to drive by our neighborhood more often. When I pointed out that carrying my gun was a direct violation of the law they assured me that law was not meant for folk like me.

That sort of thing still goes on. Recently, a friend of ours chartered a sailboat, in Florida, for a self-sailing cruise of the Caribbean. He had a buddy who was a detective on the Miami police force. This detective buddy met him at the dock, just before he set sail, and opened the trunk of his car. Inside was a whole bunch of seized machine guns. The detective told our friend to take whatever he wanted, but just to make sure he pitched them overboard before he got back to Florida.

 

[trackskippy]

Things change. People learn.

They do, and some do get it, and continue on.

Seems a lot of people though, get stuck stagnating in a certain spot and stop moving forward with progress and tech, and just dont know what they dont know about things that have moved forward and left them behind, because they thought they "were there", and gave up.

I always liked Jeff Cooper, at least early on, and still do agree with some of what he preached (I still like Bruce Lee's philosophy better though ), but got to thinking he was an arrogant old fool, when he would put down things like 9mm, and DA autos and say foolish things like "shoot the first round in the ground to get the trigger right".

Dont know if he was just too lazy to bother to learn how to properly shoot and use the "crunchentickers", and "poodle shooters", or just too arrogant to believe he didnt need to bother, and time, and some of us with it, continued to move forward with the changes, and accept them, and some others, and to excel with them and continue moving forward. Jeff wasnt wrong, at least in the moment, just like those using 1851 Navys, or SAA's, werent wrong when the DA revolver and the 1911 came about, but as with all of them, better continued to come, as did the techniques of using them.

"Snooze, you lose" is still spot on, and age has absolutely nothing to do with it. This is an ever-ongoing and never-ending course, and there are no diplomas at the end, just a death certificate, and hopefully, some young kid hungry to learn, and to pick up the torch and keep going forward. Im just kinda sorry Im not likey to see the phased plasma stuff in the 40 watt range.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

They did make "bad" choices by our standards, not theirs. Then again, they did not have the choices we have in handguns, ammunition, etc.

 

[Kleanbore]

Things change. People learn.

Just my experience.

Well put, Jim.

Golden......

 

[Tallball]

If I somehow decided to carry a 32acp, I still wouldn't carry one of my antique ones, because they aren't very safe.

A SA pistol with a safety that only blocks the trigger and is not drop safe is not something I want to carry, regardless of caliber.

 

[dp509]

I had a uncle who ran a small store in a rural area. The county only had two deputies on duty per shift.

He carried a skinny barrel S&W Model 10, with wood grips, with hollow points.
He practiced drawing it from his front pocket of his overalls. He carried a speed loader in his other pocket.
He kept a Browning A5 loaded with OO Buck in the back.

He practiced shooting once a month at various distances.

He was never robbed.

 

[StrawHat]

…I had a uncle who ran a small store in a rural area. The county only had two deputies on duty per shift...

Ashtabula County has two deputies at any given time. Down here in the south county, we rarely see one, nor need one. We look after one another.

Kevin