Llama Bob
member
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2016
- Messages
- 2,258
A while back I started a thread on what to do with a NIB Browning '71 I found at a good price. The poll strongly favored keeping it as a .348 which I will admit didn't and doesn't particularly appeal to me - not a lot of bullets, not a lot of brass, and a caliber that begs for spire point bullets in a gun that can't use them. I concluded that was out - if I wanted a lever action medium bore, I'd get an 1895 in .35 Whelen or even a BLR or M99 in .358 or something.
Instead I sent the gun to Turnbull for a re-barrel to 50-110. The gun came back around Christmas, and then had to go back because it didn't want to feed. The problem turned out to be a carrier spring that broke sometime between when they test fired it and when I tried to feed a dummy round. I had more or less figured out that was the problem by watching the action (not) operate, but the 1886 is kind of a bear to dig into and I was happy to let them do it. Service was very good (roughly a week from my call to having the working gun back), and IMO this doesn't reflect badly on Turnbull - all guns have springs that, if they break, the gun goes toes up.
With the gun back in hand, I was ready to go...
I've got 4 bullets I wanted to get working in this gun:
300gr barnes (plinking), 450gr Hawk (medium/large game bullet), 500gr Weldcore (large/dangerous game bullet), 510gr Cutting Edge solid
I started with the Barnes and Hawk. Problem is, there's diddly squat for load data. So time to make some up
A couple QuickLoad runs showed that highly compressed loads of AA2495 would be the best performer in this cartridge. Not a big surprise - it's the top performer in most big lever gun straight walls. I have calibrated burn rate data for this lot from my .45-90 which is good. For a nice safe starting loads, I went with a full case under the Barnes and Hawk bullets. I had ordered a set of CH4D dies and a custom Lee factory crimp. The CH4D dies worked great, but I did run into some problems with the Lee die. Set per the instructions, it put on mega mondo crimp - so much that it actually bent the petals on the inner sleeve of the crimp die inward causing it to fall out of the die body. Hmm, that's what I get for reading the manual. I put the inner sleeve of the die on a ring sizing mandrel, tapped it back into shape, and re-assembled the die and backed off the crimp a bunch. Then I made 10 300 grainers. STILL a lot of crimp - I was getting micro-cracks at the crimp. Backed the crimp off more and made 10 450 grainers. Still tiny cracks. Not unsafe, but this was going to be one-use brass.
Interstingly, this 2495 is a bit denser than QL thinks it should be. That's good, because at some point I'm going to try to cram a large amount of it in a very small space, and the head start will help.
With 20 rounds in hand, time to go to the range. Low and behold, another new toy tagged along:
A Winchester model 1885 in 6.5 Creedmoor. I swear it just followed me home. I have no idea where it came from.
They were a special run last year, and the combination really appeals to me for a light hunter. The commercial hunting loads pretty much suck, but my plan is to load 120gr Accubonds for deer and antelope, and 160gr Weldcores for elk. Should be soft recoiling and simple for new hunters. However I haven't had a chance to do any loading yet, so I just grabbed a box of 143gr ELD-M factory stuff.
Now to the shooting:
The 6.5CM was up first - two sighters and then a slightly over 1MOA group at 100y (ignore the 50cal hole in the middle ). Since this is not a bullet or load I care about for this gun, I stopped there - it was painless to sight in and shows promise of sub-MOA accuracy. I'll come back and load hunting bullets for it. Recoil was very tame - I'd have no problem giving this to my wife to shoot. It was nice to see that stock stability seemed to be good - while this is nominally an 1885, the forearm has been re-worked from the original JMB design to free float the barrel - a very good change IMO, certainly for this caliber. The only things about this gun I didn't like both related to stock finish. The wood is a little proud around the receiver (both pieces) and the finish was kind of dull which hid what's pretty decent wood on the buttstock. It may get refinished.
Now for the .50-110. I moved the target to 25y, sighted at the base of the diamond, and shot one of the 300gr. 2.5" high. That's lot for 25y. Just to get a feel for it I adjusted the Skinner peep down some and shot a group of 3 (circled near the bottom point of the diamond). We also ran these past a Lab Radar my friend owns. I still need to get the full data, but they were 150 ft/s faster than QL expected (2140 vs. 1990 expected). Not a safety concern (this is a sub-20KPSI load) but a surprise. Possibly due to the crimp, but it may be that the burn rate changes in this case/bullet combo vs. .45-90.
Then I shot three 450gr. Veloctiy was 1860 vs 1810 expected. So faster than expected, but not by as much. These got the slightly less insane crimp, which may explain that.
Accuracy-wise, I discovered that the Marbles gold bead front sight on this gun, while a "premium" sight, does bupkis for me. It's going to get replaced with a Skinner blade with the face painted orange. I wasn't trying too hard for accuracy since these were chrono strings, and I'm not unhappy with the ~4MOA I got with both loads. This is basically a substitute for a double rifle, and very few of those shoot much better than that, and they have regulation headaches to boot. I suspect it will improve with the new front sight, me being more careful, and additional load work.
Now, as to recoil. The 300gr were very tame. The 450gr were a lot stiffer, but still in the reasonable range - I didn't end up with any shoulder bruising from the 7 shots I fired. The full power loads will be about 20% more recoil, which should still be acceptable, especially with rounds in the mag (it's like a spring-loaded recoil absorber ). I had Turnbull put a mercury cylinder in the stock and I think that's a big part of why this isn't brutal. One thing I was concerned about was lever bite, but I'm glad to report that the Browning pistol grip lever is round in all the right places. I didn't get bitten at all. I can't say the same for my .45-90 - with it I have to position my hand carefully.
Next steps:
Instead I sent the gun to Turnbull for a re-barrel to 50-110. The gun came back around Christmas, and then had to go back because it didn't want to feed. The problem turned out to be a carrier spring that broke sometime between when they test fired it and when I tried to feed a dummy round. I had more or less figured out that was the problem by watching the action (not) operate, but the 1886 is kind of a bear to dig into and I was happy to let them do it. Service was very good (roughly a week from my call to having the working gun back), and IMO this doesn't reflect badly on Turnbull - all guns have springs that, if they break, the gun goes toes up.
With the gun back in hand, I was ready to go...
I've got 4 bullets I wanted to get working in this gun:
300gr barnes (plinking), 450gr Hawk (medium/large game bullet), 500gr Weldcore (large/dangerous game bullet), 510gr Cutting Edge solid
I started with the Barnes and Hawk. Problem is, there's diddly squat for load data. So time to make some up
A couple QuickLoad runs showed that highly compressed loads of AA2495 would be the best performer in this cartridge. Not a big surprise - it's the top performer in most big lever gun straight walls. I have calibrated burn rate data for this lot from my .45-90 which is good. For a nice safe starting loads, I went with a full case under the Barnes and Hawk bullets. I had ordered a set of CH4D dies and a custom Lee factory crimp. The CH4D dies worked great, but I did run into some problems with the Lee die. Set per the instructions, it put on mega mondo crimp - so much that it actually bent the petals on the inner sleeve of the crimp die inward causing it to fall out of the die body. Hmm, that's what I get for reading the manual. I put the inner sleeve of the die on a ring sizing mandrel, tapped it back into shape, and re-assembled the die and backed off the crimp a bunch. Then I made 10 300 grainers. STILL a lot of crimp - I was getting micro-cracks at the crimp. Backed the crimp off more and made 10 450 grainers. Still tiny cracks. Not unsafe, but this was going to be one-use brass.Interstingly, this 2495 is a bit denser than QL thinks it should be. That's good, because at some point I'm going to try to cram a large amount of it in a very small space, and the head start will help.
With 20 rounds in hand, time to go to the range. Low and behold, another new toy tagged along:
A Winchester model 1885 in 6.5 Creedmoor. I swear it just followed me home. I have no idea where it came from.
They were a special run last year, and the combination really appeals to me for a light hunter. The commercial hunting loads pretty much suck, but my plan is to load 120gr Accubonds for deer and antelope, and 160gr Weldcores for elk. Should be soft recoiling and simple for new hunters. However I haven't had a chance to do any loading yet, so I just grabbed a box of 143gr ELD-M factory stuff.
Now to the shooting:
The 6.5CM was up first - two sighters and then a slightly over 1MOA group at 100y (ignore the 50cal hole in the middle
). Since this is not a bullet or load I care about for this gun, I stopped there - it was painless to sight in and shows promise of sub-MOA accuracy. I'll come back and load hunting bullets for it. Recoil was very tame - I'd have no problem giving this to my wife to shoot. It was nice to see that stock stability seemed to be good - while this is nominally an 1885, the forearm has been re-worked from the original JMB design to free float the barrel - a very good change IMO, certainly for this caliber. The only things about this gun I didn't like both related to stock finish. The wood is a little proud around the receiver (both pieces) and the finish was kind of dull which hid what's pretty decent wood on the buttstock. It may get refinished.Now for the .50-110. I moved the target to 25y, sighted at the base of the diamond, and shot one of the 300gr. 2.5" high. That's lot for 25y. Just to get a feel for it I adjusted the Skinner peep down some and shot a group of 3 (circled near the bottom point of the diamond). We also ran these past a Lab Radar my friend owns. I still need to get the full data, but they were 150 ft/s faster than QL expected (2140 vs. 1990 expected). Not a safety concern (this is a sub-20KPSI load) but a surprise. Possibly due to the crimp, but it may be that the burn rate changes in this case/bullet combo vs. .45-90.
Then I shot three 450gr. Veloctiy was 1860 vs 1810 expected. So faster than expected, but not by as much. These got the slightly less insane crimp, which may explain that.
Accuracy-wise, I discovered that the Marbles gold bead front sight on this gun, while a "premium" sight, does bupkis for me. It's going to get replaced with a Skinner blade with the face painted orange. I wasn't trying too hard for accuracy since these were chrono strings, and I'm not unhappy with the ~4MOA I got with both loads. This is basically a substitute for a double rifle, and very few of those shoot much better than that, and they have regulation headaches to boot. I suspect it will improve with the new front sight, me being more careful, and additional load work.
Now, as to recoil. The 300gr were very tame. The 450gr were a lot stiffer, but still in the reasonable range - I didn't end up with any shoulder bruising from the 7 shots I fired. The full power loads will be about 20% more recoil, which should still be acceptable, especially with rounds in the mag (it's like a spring-loaded recoil absorber
). I had Turnbull put a mercury cylinder in the stock and I think that's a big part of why this isn't brutal. One thing I was concerned about was lever bite, but I'm glad to report that the Browning pistol grip lever is round in all the right places. I didn't get bitten at all. I can't say the same for my .45-90 - with it I have to position my hand carefully.Next steps:
- Figure out how to get the Lee die set for a sufficient but non-damaging crimp
- Re-test velocity with the new crimp to get QuickLoad calibrated right
- Install a strain gauge sensor on the barrel
- Start working up full pressure loads with QuickLoad and the strain gauge - I expect to get over 2000ft/s with the 500 and 510 gr by the time I'm done.
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