Revisiting the Kubaton?

[kBob]

A recent closed thread had me thinking. I do carry concealed regularly and I do think about "less than lethal" or "Less Lethal" options.

I do not think I should require anyone to do so or question their morals if they do not.

I have in the past carried one form of flashlight or another primarily as a light source but also with thought such might be used as a "Ju-Jitsu Stick" as they were called in the 1960s or a Kubo-tan or Kubotan or Yarwar stick or whatever.

Most of them were either AA Mini-Mag-Lites or knock offs (I currently on occasion carry a 20 year old knock off "Nordic" with a side switch or a MML with an after market tail switch) But have carried a Stlyelite "pen" or even way back a Double A pen light.

Around 1990 or so I took Ma Ayoob's LFI-1 class and he was excited to see I carried a Mini Mag-Lite in a belt pouch and gave a rather painful demonstration to the class on how it could be used as a less than lethal weapon using a pressure point directed hold on his victim's wrist to demand compliance.

Anyone have much formal training and experience with such?

Anyone suggest an On-Line source of information about such? (Beats no training, sometimes)

Least I be accused of being young and dumb and full of.....bluster, notice my reference to the 1960's and the fact that I think one of the biggest losses to the Law Enforcement Community was the fall from favor among politicians that control stuff of the three and four cell D and C cell mag-lites.

-kBob

 

[glistam]

Add-on question for the room: Cases of actual use? Because without case studies, all we have is theory.

 

[dayhiker]

I had some training, and carried a Kubotan, back in the early 90's.

Most of it was joint locks and pain compliance. Made sense back then in my early 20's. Never had to use one.

Now as an old man in my late 40's I do carry a flashlight daily. If push came to shove I will use it as a "impact enhancer" for my weak (left) hand.

I have no need to control anyone, just to cause damage, break contact, flee, or go to another option.


Edit to add...The person who trained me was certified by Mas at LFI.

iirc I believe Mr Ayoob had a defense book out on using the kubotan in the early-mid 90's. Might be worth trying to find a copy.

 

[Steve Cover]

Back in the mid 1970s I took a one day Kubotan course at the Seattle Firearms Academy.
I was impressed as to how effective it could be.
I can relate about the painful demonstration too.
(It seems that Mrs. Cover's little boy wasn't taught not to ask for trouble... LOL
The same was true in the next day's pepper spray class.
The lab rat (me) was subjected to a facefull of spray.)

A Kubotan was carried in my watch pocket for several years.
Never having a need to use it, I retired it from daily carry.

Steve

 

[sgt127]

Yes. I studied jujitsu for many years (and Iaido and Kenjitsu). The yawara was the weapon we spent the most time with in jujitsu.

I made them out of hardwood dowel soaked in lacquer for a month or so. Once they dried, they were pretty tough.

The beauty of the wood stick is that it doesn't look, or feel, like a weapon.

Used a yawara for many years on the streets as a police officer. Pressure points, pain compliance and small joint manipulation. Getting a hand back to cuff. Getting a hand to let go of a steering wheel. Peeling one fighting drunk off another.

It can be very effective. It's limited though. Some people, pain is not enough. So, it's good to have a plan B.

I carry an Embassy pen now. I can use it the same way. It's just a tiny bit short.

 

[JShirley]

I like using a two cell light as a defensive tool. While it may cause pain, in general, I believe it's more effective as an impact tool.

I always have one on me when I travel. One of several reasons I don't like impact/strike bezels is that your light is more likely to be viewed as a weapon.

 

[kBob]

Thanks to everyone for joining in.

When I was teaching regularly I encouraged those ladies with little training and large-ish purses to purchase a 2 c cell Mag-lite.

Many of my students worked in a place where "weapons" are vorbotten. BUT hey, a flash light is just a flash light, right?

I further explained that if it was to be used primarily as a bludgeon to hold it by the "head" and contact with the butt or body of the flashlight. I even explained that likely the over handed swing they were most likely to try was about the most easily countered. We covered stabbing motions briefly, but I was surprised how few adult women had ever been taught to crush a knee or ankle or crack a shin. An amazingly large percentage wanted to immediately go for the America's Funniest Video's favorite target and were shocked that most of us guys are expecting that.....especially the bad guys. Striking the wrist of a grasping hand with something hard and heavy and moving fast had seldom occurred to them.

I got some flak from boy friends and husbands about recommending a C cell over a D. I suspect these are the same guys that wanted to force a full sized service pistol or N frame equivilant revolver on the ladies for the firearms portion of the class. As a weapon I actually preferred a C cell myself and I do not have dainty hands.

-kBob

 

[JShirley]

I'm talking about the 2 AA/2 123-sized lights, not bludgeons.

 

[lemaymiami]

In my era, 1973 to 1995, as a young -then not so young cop in south Florida, the mag-lite (Kel-lite) and other machined aluminum bodied flashlights were the standard on the street as an impact weapon.... until...

Around 1979, during a motorcycle chase, which ended when the offender wiped out and crashed in Dade county (victim: Arthur MacDuffie was the guy on the motorcycle) the fleeing motorist was pretty much beaten to death with - those flashlights being used by a group of officers, operating like a wolf pack without restraint... Note - all of this preceded the Rodney King incident out in California years later... We learned our lessons early....

Subsequently a few other minor events occurred. When the officers involved were found not guilty a year or so later we then had the first annual Arthur MacDuffie riots. For those too young to have been alive then it was pretty much as bad (or worse) than the Baltimore riots of recent vintage.... After the dust settled metal flashlights were definitely not in fashion (these were mostly four cell items using either D or C batteries) no matter how effective they were on the street... It was also pretty prominently decided that if you use any tool to strike the head area you were using deadly force, period...

Yes, any solid metal flashlight makes a great impact weapon and in smaller sizes probably wouldn't cause great harm but you need to remember that any item used to strike with can be a problem if used improperly -particularly if head strikes are involved.... In later years when we all went to expandable metal batons (ASP batons) each officer was required to go through a training regimen that focused on strikes to the wrist, elbow, and shoulders only.... That training also included time in combat against a trainer in a full padded "red man suit" which is pretty much exhausting for those who've never been through it...

I like the yawara stick but it does require serious ongoing training to be proficient. The few folks I've known that were very proficient with them were usually martial arts types who lived that constant training lifestyle (think judo, jiu jitsu, aikido, karate, etc.)... For the rest of us in close quarters trouble -we'll probably be making it up as we go -and the outcome, no matter what tool we use (if any) will be a crapshoot....

 

[kBob]

John,

Yes, my OP was about AA lights as kubotans basically.

I was just sort of letting folks know I have certainly considered larger lights.

Over the years I have known folks that carried all manner of weighted objects. Most common was the roll of coinage. Dimes, pennies, nickels, and even quarters in neat rolls sometimes re-enforced with packing tape to prevent coming apart in the pocket. These seemed like a pretty good way to break your own fingers to me or something to have to try to explain to Officer Friendly was not prior intent with regard to weapons possession.

Knew a guy that carried a bit of heavy rebar and another that carried a large screw and bolt affair both wrapped in old cloth electrical tape......one of those was a 1960s cop BTW.... both long enough to stick out of the fist top and bottom. In the case of the civilian the thing had little value and he was prepared to ditch it if he ever thought to be searched.

Also knew someone that carried a flat sap because he felt if it was Ok for the cops of the time (1960's) it was OK for him, laws on slung shot be damned. Also someone that carried the traditional leather wrapped lead shot on a spring "cosh" again without regard for the law. Also a federal LEO a bit later that carried one a bit later.

Also knew guys that ordered an "AMAZING JUDO STICK" from ads in men's magazine.....you know the sticks I originally mentioned. These were somehow magic and made you invincible in street fights.....and looked just like one of those weapons advertised in men's magazines of the times if you got stopped and frisked. Wood, plastic, and metal models were out there.

Still a 2 AA flash light is, when it comes right down to it, still a flashlight. It just can be tasked for other purposes.

-kBob

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Yep a mini mag does a fine job in it's application as a Kubaton.

 

[JShirley]

Bob, I remember doing security over 20 years ago in rough neighborhoods in the Dayton, OH area. I bought a C cell MagLite for exactly this reason. I would hold it by the head, high, so I could illuminate areas. It was also poised for a strike by swinging my arm and snapping my wrist. Fortunately, I never had to use it as an impact tool.

John

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I have Ma Ayoob's book on Police Impact Weapons. I carry a flash light nearly all the time anymore.

 

[lemaymiami]

That's exactly the way all of us used them - and they could really get an opponent's attention. The incident that I described had bad officers swinging them with both hands at a downed man's head - with predictable results (he lingered a day or two before expiring... but the outcome was never in doubt...). The whole problem was greatly worsened when it was clearly shown that everyone on the scene that night lied about how the injuries were received.... It was one of those defining moments in the history of south Florida. Years later when the Rodney King incident occurred out in California I remember being thankful that everyone in my area had already learned a hard lesson about how you treat folks on the streets (no matter how angry or excited you might be...).

 

[zorro45]

flashlight/kobotan

Energizer makes a nice 2-AA flashlight, 5.75" long, 280 Lumens, LED bulb, very bright and the perfect size for a Kubotan with a knurled gripping surface. A very good value for $26 at my local Ace Hardware.Not sure if it can go on an airplane, but it does look like a kind of "weaponey flashlight."

 

[rondog]

I carry a 2-cell LED Mini-Maglite because I'm a half-blind old fart, and I use it multiple times per day. Never thought of it as a weapon, of course, I have no idea how to do so.

 

[lemaymiami]

Ron, one way to use that small metal flashlight (or any similar object) as a weapon is to hold it securely in your strong hand fist with the ends sticking out evenly... You simply strike (hammer strike for hard areas -sharp thrust for soft target areas) your opponent with it. It's very effective on the back of the hand, elbow, or shoulder joint (hard targets) and equally effective to throat, solar plexus, groin, etc (soft targets).

Of course like all impact weapons (and this also goes for edged or pointed weapons).. as my Dad would say (career Army - WWII all the way to two tours in Vietnam.... wish he were still around....) "you have to get entirely too close to someone who really doesn't like you...." Your better defense is simple distance so that you don't need to do any striking at all.

 

[glistam]

I carry a 2-cell LED Mini-Maglite because I'm a half-blind old fart, and I use it multiple times per day. Never thought of it as a weapon, of course, I have no idea how to do so.

I always carry a light. A light doesn't even have to be used as a weapon to keep you safe. Just having a light on when it's dark says "I'm aware of my surroundings and paying attention" and makes you less of a tempting target. Showing it in a suspicious person's face is also a low-level force, showing "I see you there, and I can see you much better than you can see me now. You'd best move along." even if the words you say are much more polite like "Oh, hi. Didn't see you before."