Revolver 'Carry Trigger'

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Rossi M68 mod @ 7 yards

Through a combination of circumstance, intent and luck my first attempt at a trigger job actually produced the kind of trigger I was hoping for on a carry revolver. It's quite heavy- I'm guessing 12-14 lbs. DA- but super smooth with no staging. It requires a very deliberate pull but once the trigger starts moving it's smooth and fast, and very easy to fire rapidly and accurately.

It's kind of hard to describe- you pull and it feels like the trigger isn't going to move at all, then suddenly SNAP-BANG! A friend was trying this the other day and after it went off his eyes got big. 'that's weird,' he said, 'But it works!' Linda's comment was 'It's heavy, but really good.' Good rapid-fire accuracy but an added level of safety makes this different but effective way to set up a trigger on a carry revolver.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Blkhrt13]

Sounds good, I must admit I'm spoiled lately been shooting a 2" police positive

 

[RPZ]

I know exactly what you are describing, and I think it works, as long as you can maintain good sight alignment/ picture through the pull.

And are not used to shooting with a much lighter trigger most of the time. I have had this happen when shooting pistols with heavy triggers. You squeeze, and unconsciously accustomed to a certain amount of pressure required, you squeeze a little harder and then are starting to wonder if the safety is on etc.

 

[mnrivrat]

Whatever floats your boat as they say.
I am more of a 8 Ib DA person myself and like it to carry smoothly through with as close to that as it started.

 

[DPris]

12-14 pounds DA is not "good".
I fail to see the reasoning behind why you'd want a trigger that heavy.
Denis

 

[RPZ]

12-14 pounds DA is not "good".
I fail to see the reasoning behind why you'd want a trigger that heavy.
Denis

While I prefer a lighter DA myself, I have an Airweight that has a fairly heavy pull, and have no intention of spending time and money to change it. At the likely distances for intended use it is not an issue

Arguably there are two advantages to a heavier pull. Reliable primer strikes. Yes, lighter pulls can be had with reliability if the design accomplishes it with built in mechanical advantage leverage and camming. However, modifying anything else could lead to light strikes as the trigger spring wears.

The second is perhaps helping to preclude a premature discharge under stress. Yes, the Four Rules and the right mindset are the best way to go, but I can see why some folk just feel more comfy with a heavier DA pull.

In the context of SA autos I really like a trigger that is about 3 to 3 1/2 pounds. And there are plenty of folk who would say that is too light for a combat pistol.

 

[Waveski]

Well , your 7 yard target looks good. As for me , I cannot be accurate or confident with a 12-14# trigger - and I have tried. By the way , why the range? 12# is heavy - 14# is monstrously so. Does your Rossi really vary that much?

Please share the details regarding your trigger job.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Well , your 7 yard target looks good. As for me , I cannot be accurate or confident with a 12-14# trigger - and I have tried. By the way , why the range? 12# is heavy - 14# is monstrously so. Does your Rossi really vary that much?

Please share the details regarding your trigger job.

The range is because I don't have a trigger gauge, so I am only guessing the pull weight is somewhere between 12-14lbs. I suppose that instead of guessing I should have just said 'pretty heavy.' It might be a bit less; my wife doesn't have trouble pulling it and she does not have my strong trigger-finger.

Details of the trigger job- as I said, there was some luck and circumstances involved. I am an amateur/hobbyist with some knowledge of guns and a lot of experience working with my hands. Originally this was going to be a range-gun for my wife, but she changed her mind about what she wanted midway through the project. Initially I simply detail-stripped the trigger mechanism and anywhere metal was working against metal I carefully polished the surfaces. This produced a nice, smooth pull.

Trying the gun at the range we discovered it had light-strike issues (and some other minor issues not relevant to the trigger-job.) I replaced the mainspring with an S&W Model 60 mainspring and that was better, but still had issues with some brands. By this point the project had gone from 'Linda's range toy' to 'my carry gun' so I wanted absolute reliability. I wound a short 'helper spring' from music-wire and placed it in-line with the mainspring, which solved all the issues with light strikes.

The trigger-pull was now heavy and smooth, but still had some staging so I looked at where metal was bearing on metal at different points in the mechanisms travel, then selectively polished in the areas where there was increased resistance. This reduced the staging to the point where an experienced DA shooter cannot reliably stop the trigger mid-pull without practice.

The feeling of pulling this trigger quickly is initial resistance that suddenly 'breaks' and the tigger 'snaps' to complete the cycle. If you have a solid grip the gun does not move appreciably during the 'snap' phase. In practice this makes for a very effective rapid-fire trigger that feels quite different from a typical double-action revolver trigger. It's not a trigger that you are going to pull when you don't intend to, but when you do pull it it's easy to use accurately.

I wound up at a different place than most people working on a trigger for a carry revolver, but it's a place that works and arguably offers an extra layer of safety.This is more something I 'discovered' more than invented. I posted this to get people's thoughts about this sort of trigger.

I'm not trying to sell this in any sense; I am not and never will be a professional gunsmith. I don't have the skill set, interest or training to do this as a job; it's all just for fun. Ironically this project has taken so long I now have other guns I would rather carry...

 

[Sistema1927]

Could you be confusing "heavy" with "long"?

I have a hard time seeing how you could end up with a target like that with a 12-14 lb pull on a short barrel revolver. It would surprise me if it was over 8 lbs. It might be time to get a trigger gauge and confirm.

A long, smooth, trigger pull with no stacking is good. A heavy trigger pull not so much.

 

[Sunray]

"...it works!..." Rule Number 1. If it works(the target speaks for itself), don't fix it. Anyway, smooth is more important than pull weight.
The weight can likely be lessen by changing springs.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Could you be confusing "heavy" with "long"?

I have a hard time seeing how you could end up with a target like that with a 12-14 lb pull on a short barrel revolver. It would surprise me if it was over 8 lbs. It might be time to get a trigger gauge and confirm.

A long, smooth, trigger pull with no stacking is good. A heavy trigger pull not so much.

If I am going to keep futzing around like this I do need a trigger gauge. I have revolvers with excellent, light DA triggers; this one is quite heavy, though perhaps not so heavy as I have guessed.

 

[AZAndy]

If I am going to keep futzing around like this I do need a trigger gauge. I have revolvers with excellent, light DA triggers; this one is quite heavy, though perhaps not so heavy as I have guessed.

A cheap way to do it is with a portable fish scale. A lot of standard trigger gauges only go up to ten pounds, so I break out the fish scale for, you know, Nagants and P-64s and such.

I'm with you on the trigger weight-- I like a carry revolver to be at ten pounds or even a bit more. 1911s are a different story, but they have a thumb safety.

 

[DPris]

A DA that heavy is needlessly so & counterproductive to efficiency.
There is no way I'd use such a gun for SD unless it were the only gun I had.

It is quite possible to get primer-strike reliability with a far lighter DA pull & if you can't, there's something else going on that needs to be addressed.
My father had an inexpensive Rossi revolver years ago that actually had a surprisingly light & smooth DA trigger, with complete reliability.

12-14 pounds is ridiculous in a "carry" trigger.
You might, incidentally, want to confirm that with a gauge before you continue posting about it.
Either your guess is off, or your ability to diagnose issues & correct them is inadequate.

I don't mean to sound unduly harsh, but if it truly is a 12-14 pound trigger, it is NOT good.
And if you believe it's necessary to save yourself from an AD, you might need some re-evaluation of your thought processes & abilities.
Not to mention your equipment.
Denis

 

[Jenrick]

If you have something of known weight you can use it as a make shift trigger gauge. A gallon jug of water weights about 8.3 lbs, tie some string to the handle on the jug, and see if the trigger (on an UNLOADED pistol) will lift it. If it does, add a second empty jug and slowly add water until the trigger breaks. Measure the extra water you added to get an approximation of the final amount of weight needed. 8 ounces of water (ie 1 cup) weights 8.3 ounces, so roughly 1.03 ounces of weight per 1 ounce of water.

Reference the actual trigger you are describing, hey if it works you, go for it!

-Jenrick

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I don't mean to sound unduly harsh, but if it truly is a 12-14 pound trigger, it is NOT good.
And if you believe it's necessary to save yourself from an AD, you might need some re-evaluation of your thought processes & abilities.
Not to mention your equipment.
Denis

Nah, don't need it. I EDC'd a cock-and-locked 1911 for years without issues. This is more about my surprise that a trigger this heavy works the way it does. According to my previous thinking this shouldn't work, yet it does. The 7-yard rapid-fire target I posted seems to support that; despite the heavy pull I shoot this as well as I shoot my 'conventionally' good DA revolvers. So do the few others that have tried it, and we were all sort of amazed by this. The fact that this works has caused me to re-evaluate my thoughts about what makes a 'good' trigger pull for a carry gun.

Yes, I am going to confirm the trigger-pull. Yes, my skills and knowledge as a gunsmith are absolutely deficient- I'm learning this stuff as I go along. It's entirely possible that the trigger can be lightened significantly, and I see no reason not to experiment further. It's not like I don't have plenty of other carry guns.

 

[DPris]

My primary concerns are that you may be in over your head, may be addressing a "fix" in one area that should be addressed in another, may end up creating a dangerous condition in your gun through inadequate knowledge of how the parts relate & inadequate trouble-shooting abilities, seem to be promoting favorably that the idea of such a heavy pull is "good" for a carry gun, and that other members here with little knowledge of gun mechanics or defensive dynamics may think this is all OK & try to follow your example, with potentially minor negative results in ruining good guns (of the better Smith & Ruger quality levels), or potentially catastrophic results in other areas.

There is always a certain percentage of novice gunnies who'll stumble across questionable practices on the Internet, and adopt them with the idea that "It's gotta be true, saw it on the INTERNET!!!!"

As long as you're only tinkering with a Rossi, no real monetary loss if you proceed any further, and the collector world certainly won't get any heartburn.
You may end up with a mess if you keep going, and some new readers here may be tempted to try what you're doing on a nice Smith, rather than getting professional help with light strikes.
Denis

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Valid concerns, so I'll say this- don't try this at home! People will of course follow this advice or disregard it as their nature dictates.

Yeh, I would not attempt this on an expensive, high-quality revolver. Nor do I advocate a heavy trigger-pull as a substitute for training. Heavy trigger pulls are bad. They. promote poor accuracy and I don't recommend them. This one is an anomaly, and I don't recommend trying to replicate it. Stick with the tried and true until a large body of evidence contradicts it, which isn't going to happen in this case. The fact that it is possible to make a heavy trigger pull that works well doesn't mean it's the best or even a good solution.

As to creating a dangerous situation- I'm a beginner at home gunsmithing, but not entirely ignorant. I've been mucking about with guns for about four decades and worked as an assembler for Detonics back in the 1980's. I have an extensive knowledge of metallurgy due to my profession, and great skill at fabricating things. I will recognize a dangerous condition before attempting to fire the gun. I'm not only fond of the various bits of my body, I use them to make a living and I guard their safety diligently.

As stated, this is a hobby for me these days. If anyone reading this wants work on the trigger of a firearm I would strongly advise using a professional gunsmith of good reputation- people here can readily direct you to any number of suitable craftsmen. If you wish to take up gunsmithing yourself I would recommend attending classes and getting properly educated.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

OK, I just took a coat hanger, a shopping bag, bottles of water and a digital kitchen scale and measured the trigger-pull on this gun. The coat hanger and bag weighed 2 ounces. each water bottle weighed 37 ounces. I loaded the gun with snap-caps, hung the bag off the trigger and added water bottles until it pulled the trigger. I wound up with six bottles and a partially full bottle that weighed a total of 16 ounces.

37x6= 222 ounces
222 + 2+ 16 = 240 ounces
240 divided by 16= 15 lbs.

The gun has a 15 pound trigger pull. That's ridiculous, and far heavier than it needs to be for reliable ignition. Hey, if we can produce good groups with a fifteen pound trigger it can only improve by lightening it, right? So, new project- how light can we get this trigger and still get 100% ignition?

 

[DPris]

15 is beyond absurd.
Can you possibly get it to a gunsmith with a trigger gauge?
Denis

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

15 is beyond absurd.
Can you possibly get it to a gunsmith with a trigger gauge?
Denis

Agreed. Won't be a problem to get it to a gunsmith, but I think I am pretty close to the actual pull-weight and most trigger gauges stop at 12 pounds.

 

[earplug]

Find some extra springs that match the trigger return and hammer spring. Getting the two springs to balance is key to a nice revolver DA job.

 

[DPris]

You may find a smith with the old-fashioned weights that can go higher.
Or you may find you've miscalculated slightly with your home-made "gauge".

Either way, whatever you've done to the gun is wrong.
Correcting for light strikes in such a manner that you end up with a trigger like that is not the way to go about it.
Denis

 

[Waveski]

15# is a real forearm vein popper. Worse than a P.38 in double action - and that is a nasty DA trigger indeed. I will be interested to hear what a good scale has to say about your Rossi in DA.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

You may find a smith with the old-fashioned weights that can go higher.
Or you may find you've miscalculated slightly with your home-made "gauge"

No, I didn't. I'm not an idiot, I have a good understanding of how scales and calculators work and I double checked it. Is it as accurate as a purpose-built trigger gauge? Probably not. But I bet it's pretty close.

Either way, whatever you've done to the gun is wrong.
Correcting for light strikes in such a manner that you end up with a trigger like that is not the way to go about it.
Denis

Definitely. It's wrong, but it's a lesson and a learning experience. Personally I'd have no issue carrying the gun as it is; it's reliable and I shoot it well. But it isn't my first or only choice and why carry it as-is when the fix is simple?

What I did wrong was to make the helper spring too heavy. What I did right was to make a gun that was easy to shoot well despite the absurd trigger pull weight. That's kind of weird. It certainly defies the conventional expectation of what constitutes a useable trigger and I thought that worthy of discussion. It's also fixable; when I thought it was probably 12 pounds I was like, OK, well it works even if it is heavy. 15 pounds? Yeah, no, that ain't right. So I'll fix it. Maybe I can even get it light enough that a normal trigger scale will work.

 

[340PD]

In my opinion weight has little to do with it assuming you are strong enough to operate the trigger. Smoothness with zero stacking is what works for me. If that tilts your wheel give the Kimber K6s a looksee.