Revolver Legality Hypothetical

Status
Not open for further replies.

RPRNY

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2012
Messages
2,334
Location
Front Range, CO
Purely hypothetical, just trying to understand aspects of regulation.

Let's say one's primary residence is in a highly totalitarian State like say, NY, and there, in one of the more insane southern counties where obtaining even a home defense handgun permit is a burdensome and time consuming process (may issue, not shall issue).

One has a second vacation home in a State where guns are largely unregulated by State law like say, Vermont.

In Vermont, there is no law whatsoever prohibiting one from owning or carrying a revolver. But, one is not a resident (residency requirements in VT are very specific).

My understanding (and clarification/correction is most welcome), is that non-residency would prohibit purchase of a revolver in VT?

Now, let's say one were to purchase a black powder revolver outside NY, in a non-specifically regulated State where the Federal reg was the guiding law (ie BP revolver not a firearm). Would the regulations of one's State/County of residence (which define BP revolvers the same as modern handguns and subject to the same burdensome and time consuming permit process) prevail in purchase of said BP revolver "Oh, sorry, NY residence, so can't sell that to you". Or would that be a caveat emptor situation "please be aware that State and local regulations may prohibit your possession of this BP firearm in those jurisdictions"?

If the latter, then were one to have said revolver (say, a Ruger Old Army) only in VT, a jurisdiction where possession and carry of any firearm is essentially unregulated, and were one to subsequently use a conversion cylinder to allow the firing of "cowboy load" smokeless cartridges, would non-residency in VT be an issue for VT or Federal LEO? Say, in home invasion, armed intruder was shot with converted ROA. Would that be "ohhhh, non-resident without home State permit, big problem!". Or would that be, "firearm is perfectly legal in this State, not a problem"?

I understand that there are detailed jurisdictional issues here that may inhibit provision of definitive answers, but it would be good to get some directional guidance before pursuing further.
 
In the case of a modern firearm, if you are in a state with the intent of residing there (to include multiple residences in several states) you are considered to reside in that state for the purposes of buying a firearm. So if you have a home in VT and live there sometimes, you are a VT resident and may purchase a firearm in VT while you're there. NY laws do not apply (except of course that you can't take it back to NY with you).

WRT blackpowder "antique" firearms? Federal law does not regulate their sale. So you may buy one anywhere where that state's laws do not make them illegal or regulated.
 
Very informative, thanks. The question of residency for firearms purchase in VT is interesting. I will have to find more out about how one would establish bona fides in that regard. No drivers license - that requires formal residency - no utility bills - we are off the grid. I suppose a deed might do it.

Thanks for the information.
 
Check NY laws RE BP Revolvers. I think you'll find you can indeed have it with you there.


Just no powder balls or caps....
 
This raises a question I have been pondering for some time. As I understand it, federal law allows for multiple residency (snow birds, etc.) for firearms purchase. But what does one do for ID? You can effectively buy in only one state because you have only one driver's license. I've been in situations where swapping driver's licenses was not in the cards but I was legitimately a resident in two states.
 
You can buy and purchase BP pistols in NY without permit. When you have one and the components to fire it you need a permit. No distinction is made between modern and "antique" once you cross that threshold.
 
This raises a question I have been pondering for some time. As I understand it, federal law allows for multiple residency (snow birds, etc.) for firearms purchase. But what does one do for ID? You can effectively buy in only one state because you have only one driver's license. I've been in situations where swapping driver's licenses was not in the cards but I was legitimately a resident in two states.
The out of state driver's license can be used for the identification document, and any other government issued document, such as vehicle registration, hunting or fishing license, or tax document can be used to establish the state of residency. Also, proof of residency or ID is not required (in most states) for a private face-to-face firearms transaction, so if the person is comfortable with your presence in that state with the intention of making a home there (even a part-time home), they can sell you a firearm.
 
This raises a question I have been pondering for some time. As I understand it, federal law allows for multiple residency (snow birds, etc.) for firearms purchase. But what does one do for ID? You can effectively buy in only one state because you have only one driver's license. I've been in situations where swapping driver's licenses was not in the cards but I was legitimately a resident in two states.
You can only have one drivers license but you can have as many state issued identification cards as you like.
 
Get a state ID. A DL isn't necessary for purchase just ID.

I have one, and only one, driver's license. But I have a couple of state ID cards. Each with a legitimate residential address in the issuing state. There's no legal or ethical problem with that.

Multiple driver's licenses will land you in the pokey.

I have, on occasion, had a police officer notice the IDs and mistake them for multiple DLs. They ask for them, examine them, then hand them back. Same with concealed carry permits, which look like driver's licenses. Just as soon as they figure out that you really only have one DL they're satisfied.
 
for the past 10 years, I lived in three states throughout the year (NY,VA,FL).

AT one point I had a NY DL, my truck registered in VA, and my Motorcycle Registered in FL. Both FL and VA accepted the registrations as proof of residence.

I also had a local bank account with a local address in each state, which will serve to establish residence for a registration. In FL, I rented a room from a friend, in exchange for paying his cable bill, and had a signed rental agreement to show for it. In VA, I used the address of the Boat Yard where I was docked (which I have been told was OK, and that it was not OK, both by persons in official capacity).

IIRC, in both VA and FL, a Monthly Bank Statement with the address was sufficient proof of residency for the DMV.
 
Not necessarily true. Some states will revoke your DL if you obtain an ID in another state.
A state issued ID has no effect on your drivers license in any state. A state issued ID does not give you driving privileges. A state issued ID is to provide identification for banks and other activities that require a state issued photo ID, it has no effect on your driving privileges.

I train horses for a living. A racing meet only lasts a few months, then everyone moves on to another track, often in another state. When I get to my destination one of the first things I have to do is get a state issued ID so I can rent an apartment and get a trainers license for that state.
 
A state issued ID has no effect on your drivers license in any state. A state issued ID does not give you driving privileges. A state issued ID is to provide identification for banks and other activities that require a state issued photo ID, it has no effect on your driving privileges.

I train horses for a living. A racing meet only lasts a few months, then everyone moves on to another track, often in another state. When I get to my destination one of the first things I have to do is get a state issued ID so I can rent an apartment and get a trainers license for that state.
Well, I just contacted the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, they told me that they will cancel my DL if I were to obtain a DL or ID in any other state.

They implied that this was required per the Real ID Act. I'm going to look into that further.
 
Be all that as it may, VT will not issue an ID of any kind to anyone who does not meet their definition of residency. This means establishment of VT as your primary residence and filing of a State income tax declaration. Having been on the phone with an Assistant States Attorney this morning I am confident of this interpretation of the law. Surprisingly, in my view, she was actively unhelpful when I asked her advice on how one might reconcile the Federal definition of State residence (title 27 Part 487) with the VT definition. In any event, I have a lawyer on it now.
 
It would make sense that if you have several residences in this country, you are a part time resident in some states. Thus the non resident pistol permits in FL. You can be a resident of as many states as you have a residense in, but you must pick one as your primary residence.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/ccw/CCW01.html
If you pick FL as the primary you are good to go in 33 states. The above link explains most of it.
Drivers have to pick which state they want as their primary residense, "where your cars are registered etc. same with guns, the rest are part time residenses. This should be the same as your pistol permit, as it makes no difference in the other 32 states.
 
I own homes in 2 states, have a DL from one state and a state ID from the other. I used a property deed and printed bank checks to establish my residency for my first purchase in state #2 but pretty quickly realized I didn't want to tote my property deed all over the state, so I used the deed and a utility bill to establish my residency for the purpose of obtaining the ID card. No problems since then.

You may need to be creative in obtaining a utility bill, just don't do anything illegal. Buy a second car or a small trailer and register it in the second state, get your ID, and sell the car or trailer if you really don't need it. Nothing illegal about that.

Yes some states WILL have your primary state DL cancelled if you obtain a second state ID card, so check on that first.vv:cuss:
 
I would think the deed to your property in VT would be good enough to establish residency don't you think?

I do know that in Oregon where you, as a NY resident, cannot obtain an out-of-state CHL...if you own property in OR, even as a resident of NY, you would be able to apply for a CHL based on your OR property ownership (you don't even have to live on it with OR)

Look to see if VT does not consider the same. I know not all state (including NY) will acknowledge a second residence for carry license purposes.
 
Be all that as it may, VT will not issue an ID of any kind to anyone who does not meet their definition of residency. This means establishment of VT as your primary residence and filing of a State income tax declaration. Having been on the phone with an Assistant States Attorney this morning I am confident of this interpretation of the law. Surprisingly, in my view, she was actively unhelpful when I asked her advice on how one might reconcile the Federal definition of State residence (title 27 Part 487) with the VT definition. In any event, I have a lawyer on it now.

The purchase of firearms in Vermont is regulated by federal law, not state law. An FFL is, as the name would imply, a federal license. Federal law thus governs the definition of residency as it relates to firearms purchases. Vermont's definition of residency is irrelevant in this situation. You will need to be able to truthfully assert on form 4473 that you live on your property in Vermont during the portion of the year you are here. You will need a government document establishing your address in the state. This can be your deed or a tax bill.

You will also need identification. This does not necessarily need to be Vermont ID under federal law. However, an FFL has the right to refuse any transaction, and it would not surprise me if an FFL refused to accept a NYS ID. It would be perfectly legit for him to accept the NYS ID, but I think it's unlikely he would unless he knew you personally as a part time resident, or he was really up on the letter of the law.
 
Thanks very much. I spoke with a very pleasant and helpful lady at the ATF office in Montpelier yesterday and she iterated almost verbatim Lemmecaution's excellent summary. She also pointed ri the guidance section of question 20 (page 5 of 4473) which explains exactly that and said she was confident that the vast majority of FFLs would be fully conversant in the issue and, if they weren't, they could call her.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top