Revolver or auto

[pwrtool45]

The P210 may have been a military sidearm, but it's also a $2000 USD pistol. The fact that it was a military sidearm doesn't diminish this. They are fitted by hand, one at a time. The catalog even states that one needs to inquire as to current price and availability of the 210. That stipulation doesn't exist for any other product in their line of pistols.

You severely underestimate the L-frame. I've only got 8,000 rounds though my single most used (centerfire) revolver, but that's still by and large mostly handloaded magnums. The gun isn't loose, it doesn't need to be repaired and the screws aren't falling out of it. Many 686/GP-100 shooters report similar results.

The vanilla 629 is heavier than a G21, yes, but you'll notice I said 629 MG (Mountain Gun). They're not hard to find and they are palpably lighter while still being controllable. As far as being hard to hide outside of winter garb, well, try a good IWB, pants that fit properly and a proper grips for the round butt configuration. If you can hide a G21 IWB, I know you can hide a 4" 629. Yeah, the cylinder girth is a present concern, but it isn't any worse than the G21 being almost as thick as a brick the whole length of the weapon.

A skilled revolver shooter slower than a newbie with an auto? This is simply not the case, unless you're using Robbie Leatham as the yardstick for your newbie. Go to any IDPA or IPSC match and time reloads from Master class revolver shooters and sharpshooter/D-class auto shooters.

In all, I concur that it's best we just agree to disagree. However, please reconsider some of your claims. You state them as absolute truth and while it may be your experience, other people have had contrsting experiences.

 

[355sigfan]

You severely underestimate the L-frame. I've only got 8,000 rounds though my single most used (centerfire) revolver, but that's still by and large mostly handloaded magnums. The gun isn't loose, it doesn't need to be repaired and the screws aren't falling out of it. Many 686/GP-100 shooters report similar results
END

My estimation is based on my experience and the experience of those whose word I trust. I agree on the GP100 its built like a tank and is the Glock of the revolver world.

The Smith Mountain gun weighs in at about 35 ounces. The Glock 20 comes in at 25 ounces or so. Personally I don't care for either. I prefer the 21 to the 20 as a duty weapon and I would prefer the 625 to the 629 if I had to carry a revolver for personal protection. The 629 would make a better woods gun and be more versatile. But the 625 loads faster and would be better for personal defense work.

SNIP
You state them as absolute truth and while it may be your experience, other people have had contrsting experiences.
END

In fairness your doing the same. You stated that revolvers were more accurate and I showed examples where they are not and you seemed to gloss over that point. (bullseye shooting) I would say this some revolvers are more accurate than autos and some autos are more accurate than some revolvers.

On the reloading time lets just say that given an equal level of skill amount shooters the auto will always win this speed contest.
Pat

 

[pwrtool45]

And my estimation of their performance is also based on both my own experience and the word of those I believe. Mine differs. I guess we'll leave it at that.

I "glossed" over the auto/revolver accuracy example you gave about as much as you "glossed" over the P210 custom/factory example I gave. Largely because there's just no point in continuing either one. They were both anecdotal to an greater hierarchical point, and that point has either been addressed or is not going to get addressed.

Nope, I stil haven't addressed how most Bullseye shooters use autos. Probably, I would guess, for the same reason most IPSC shooters use 1911s. Probably for the same reasons that IPSC shooters no longer start hands-over-heart or use chest holsters. Being competitive, being fashionable (are the modern-art paint jobs SVI offers superior to regular blued steel? they're getting quite common...) and a host of other reasons would be my best guess. Maybe because finding smiths to work on bullseye 1911s is easier to find than smiths to work on bullseye Model 15s. Those are high-maintenance critters. Truth is, I just don't know. I understand the purpose of your question (popularity of autos over revolvers in one accuracy-based sport). I suppose I could counter with "how many autos do you see in IMHSA?" What about longer-range accuracy? To wit, you could counter that most autos aren't chambered in competitive cartridges. To wit I could counter that IMHSA uses regular ol' magnum revolver rounds, pistols should use regular ol' pistol rounds, and that accuracy is accuracy. To wit you could counter... ad nauseum. I don't think we're going to accomplish anything at this point; why continue?

Yeah, I'm basically doing the same thing you are. Yeah, I recognize that. My point was simply that your experience isn't necessarily gospel. I suppose I should have explicitly stated mine isn't either. I should have offered qualifiers I figured they were assumed. You may have made the same assumption. Either way, my original point was simply that a revolver isn't necessarily going to go out of time if you drop it. It isn't necessarily going to go out of time after you put a few thousand magnum rounds though it. My point is that revolvers aren't necessarily as weak or inadequate as you appear to insist. That's more or less it. Maybe I should have phrased it like that to start with; probably would have saved the bandwidth of us going back and forth.

 

[355sigfan]

pwrtool45

Stay safe with your wheelguns this Christmas and happy new year. The truth is even if I am wrong and your right or if I am right and your wrong its not likely to matter that much. The most inportant factor is the shooter not the gun.
Pat

 

[Oracle]

my original point was simply that a revolver isn't necessarily going to go out of time if you drop it. It isn't necessarily going to go out of time after you put a few thousand magnum rounds though it.

And not all autos are going to jam, or require more than a "tap, rang, bang" drill to clear a jam, or many of the various other arguments against revolvers. The point is: use a gun that you have proven to yourself to be reliable. That's what matters more than anything else, that your gun go bang when you need it to most.

 

[pwrtool45]

355Sig

I reckon we'd agree on that. Enjoy the holidays.



Oracle

I certainly hope not. I've been carrying an automatic as I've added to this thread throughout the day, and I'll be carrying an automatic as I travel tonight.

 

[BluesBear]

Could the reason that most bullseye shooters now use semi-autos be because of the trigger pull?
With the semi-auto you have a short single action trigger pull for each shot and there is no change in grip needed to cock the hammer.
It has nothing to do with the mechanical accuracy of the two types.

But getting back to the original premise of this thread, before it was hijacked by competeing personalities, hone defense.

My first choice is my short barreled Mossberg. While I CCW a Colt .45 semi-auto for, as Jeff Cooper used to say - serious social intercourse, on my nightstand is a revolver. S&W 6". Elegant simplicity, no muss, no fuss.
"Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep but I rely on S&W to protect the body where it resides."

As for the .357 being the "smallest of the mainstream magnums"...
You say that like it's a bad thing? 158gr LHP .357 magnum trumps ANY 9mm JHP in defense against homo sapiens.
As for .44 magnum power. Show me a reliable semi-auto with the same power as a .44 magnum that can be made to equal weight.

For those of us who have invested literally years in training a semi-auto is great. For those who haven't yet had the chance to "become as one" with their weapons then the double action revolver is what I reccomend.

If I recall from studying history I believe William Hickcock carried a brace of .36 caliber 1858 Colt Navy revolvers quite a while after cartridge revolvers became available. Why? Because he was intimate with them. He trusted them and he knew exactly what they were capable of in his hands.
Of course I am also quite sure that somebody felt that his choices were obsolete. For him they weren't.

Any carpenter or machinist or mechanic will tell you to use the right tool for the job.

I know some people who feel my Mossberg pump shotgun is obsolete. But I know two Viet Nam vets who ditched their M-16s for Winchester 1897 pumps. Obsolence had nothing to do with it.

When I have a flat tire on my automobile I'd much prefer to be able to use a nice hydraulic jack to raise the car and an air-wrench to remove the lugs. But my bumper jack and 4-way will get the job done just fine.


But then maybe it's me that obsolete? After all, every single one of my 18 basses have only 4 strings.

 

[355sigfan]

158gr LHP .357 magnum trumps ANY 9mm JHP in defense against homo sapiens.
END

In pure energy and momentium yes. But Will it expand to .70 caliber and go 14 inches like the +p+ 127 grian Ranger. Sometimes less is more.

Also in accuracy at least in 22 rimfires autos are more accurate due to having a fixed barrel and one firing chamber. Thats why they are preferred in bullseye. The trigger pull issue you mention is also worth note. Its why autos are easier to shoot well.

When it comes to the heavy mags that is revolver territory. If I need to go hunting or fishing in bear country I strap on a revolver. But if the predator is man armed with a gun give me a semi auto.

You don't need years to become proficient with a semi auto. The time it takes to learn both the revolver and the auto are simular. Yes the auto takes a bit more time but that time is measured in days perhaps not years.

One thing I do recomend is to keep your actions type as simular as possible. Its better to stick with one type. For example if you like Smith revolvers a Good house gun would be a 629 while a good ccw gun may be a 19. What you don't want to do is carry a revolver most of the time and then try a gun with a safety like a 1911 part of the time.
Pat

 

[BluesBear]

What you don't want to do is carry a revolver most of the time and then try a gun with a safety like a 1911 part of the time.

Well now, for some of us old guys, who have been doing this for 30 or more years, have no problem switching back and forth from one platform to the other.

Since my brain has no problem knowing the difference in grip between a 1911 type pistol and a double action revolver my muscle memory kinda takes over and everything works fine for me. Of course I have practiced and trained excessively over the years and have accused of being somewhat open-minded on more than one occasion.


Anyway it works just fine for me. Your methods may vary and I am sure you'll preach a little more about it.

 

[355sigfan]

Anyway it works just fine for me. Your methods may vary and I am sure you'll preach a little more about it.
END

No preaching just common sense that is also taught by most mainstream firearms instructors. At least we had a civil exchange of ideas.
Pat

 

[Majic]

Just an historical observation, but not meant to step on toes or frost one's you know whats.
The semi-auto has been adopted by militaries since the turn of the 20th century. It was adopted by European LEOs in the 1930's. So it has been an accurate and reliable platform for many decades.
Now most of the "mainstream instructors" (a borrowed phrase) did not teach the use of the semi-auto untill the day the "wondernine" became "fashionable" (other borrowed words). Revolver tactics were taught and used throughout the world. Exactly what caused the drastic shift in training hardware to a platform that had been around for 80 years or so? Could it possibly be the sudden exposure the platform gained from the entertainment industry? Why all of a sudden the revolver become "obsolete" overnight to a nearly century old design? Even though the revolver was considered not worthy of sustaining a battle, it has always received recommendations as a back-up piece to the pistol. That gives the impression that if the pistol fails for some reason, the reliable revolver is called upon to save the day.
Instructors never cease to amaze me in teaching just their personal philosophy on a very flexible subject such as firearms.

 

[Oracle]

Majic,

I think that it's mainly because a younger crop of firearms instructors came along, and they were primarily interested in using/training others to use the most popular handguns of their day, which were high capacity autos. They also saw the advantage of the high capacity autos over revolvers (as nearly every police department has as well). There also seems to be quite a bit of "kit bashing" that goes on, finding out which guns work best with the tactics and strategies that the instructors are teaching. With most modern gun schools, this seems to be automatics, more specifically, 1911's and Glocks. Those are the guns you see at most advanced or intermediate handgun training schools or courses. Is it because they are the most fashionable, or because they work best with the training given? You have to decide that for yourself, but I believe it's the latter.

 

[Majic]

That is my point Oracle. The training has centered itself around just one platform. The other platform is largely ignored in training, but still recommended for carrying as a back-up. A good instructor should include all platforms, but unfortunately they ignore some. Flexibility should be given in the training to include SA pistols, DA/SA pistols, the various named safe action pistols, and the DA/SA revolver. They all have viable uses in defensive needs, but alot of instructors choose and focus only on one design. That forces a person to find a school that teaches the platform and action he/she personally chose. Exposure should be given to all types and limitations should be lifted. Alot of instructors need more training themselves as they really are behind the learning curve by specializing in just one platform. You fight with what you brought to the party. How many have trained with a wondernine, but just slip a little single stack pistol or revolver in their pocket to just run down to the corner store?

 

[Penforhire]

With regard to different manuals of arms, mentioned further above, that is one of the big reasons I picked a P99 to sit with my 686 in the Gunvault where I sleep. I like that it has no switched safety, similar to the 686, and a long first DA pull like the 686 (figuring I'll be under LOTS of stress if I have to present it).

Both guns are kept in "pull trigger to go bang" condition, loaded with high quality ammo. I love my Gunvault since I do have visitors, including rug rats, but I don't want to disarm myself for those occasions.

I'll agree this much with you, 355Sigfan, I don't really care which firearm I pull out 1st. They will both get the job done and whatever becomes the 2nd gun makes a darn fine NY reload for the 1st.

 

[355sigfan]

think that it's mainly because a younger crop of firearms instructors came along, and they were primarily interested in using/training others to use the most popular handguns of their day, which were high capacity autos.
END
Actually the firearms instrutors that shifted everyone one to semi autos were people Like Cooper, Taylor and more recently Clint Smith. They are not preching high capacity but rather the 1911. The reason was it simple could be shot better and faster than the revolvers and other autos of the day and it still can be.
Pat

 

[Oracle]

he training has centered itself around just one platform. The other platform is largely ignored in training, but still recommended for carrying as a back-up. A good instructor should include all platforms, but unfortunately they ignore some. Flexibility should be given in the training to include SA pistols, DA/SA pistols, the various named safe action pistols, and the DA/SA revolver. They all have viable uses in defensive needs, but alot of instructors choose and focus only on one design. That forces a person to find a school that teaches the platform and action he/she personally chose.

I disagree, I think it is a good thing that the instructors tend to focus on one design or platform, because they (usually) teach the best tactics and strategies to use with that platform. Your knowledge gained from that school/instructor may not have the breadth to include a number of different action types, but it has the depth needed to make you very effective with the platform type taught by that school, and thusly, you get the best, most in-depth instruction, geared toward your chosen platform.

I think that the problem you're noticing is that there are few schools out there that teach combat/defensive revolver shooting, and there are a whole lot that teach combat/defensive pistol shooting. That's just the way it is, the semiauto pistol has proven to be a more popular shooting platform for serious shooters (i.e. the ones that go and get defensive/combat training) than revolvers have. I suspect that this is heavily influenced by the fact that most police departments issue semiauto pistols now, and either departments or individual police officers comprise a large amount of those that go and get handgun training.

As for the "what do you grab when you are heading out to the corner store?", I grab what I've trained with the most, and what I shoot the best, a Glock. Others may do differently, but I prefer to carry the platform that I've trained the most on, even on "trips down to the corner store."

Actually the firearms instrutors that shifted everyone one to semi autos were people Like Cooper, Taylor and more recently Clint Smith. They are not preching high capacity but rather the 1911.

Actually, I've seen Clint Smith recommend the Glock 9mm's more often than I've seen him recommend anything else, in the stuff that I've read. I saw a quote not too long ago that if you were going to recieve training from him, had never used a firearm before, and wanted to know what to get, to get a Glock 9mm, either a 17 or a 19, both "high capacity guns".

 

[355sigfan]

Actually I was talking about what Clint himself preferred and it seems to be a 1911. Many very knowledgeable people recommend Glocks to new shooters and police because they work great and are simple to train on. I still love my Glocks.
Pat