Revolver Timing

[Magic79]

Hi all...first thread for me.

I recently found a nice 90% S&W Model 29 and a fantastic, maybe 95-98% S&W M586.

I took them to the range. The M29 is incredible...offhand one hole groups to 15 yards.

The 586, however, just didn't shoot the group I expected. It wasn't bad just wasn't what I expected based on a couple of other 586's I've owned.

I went to clean it tonight and when I opened the cylinder I felt something tiny in my hand. It's a thin shaving of bullet jacket.

To me, this says it's out of time. But, I've never had experience with a revolver being out of time. Anyone had experience? Is that what this is? If so, what's it cost to fix and anyone know know a first class revolversmith in the Pacific Northwest?

Thanks
Mark

 

[Sheldon]

You can check the timing yourself. Make double sure the weapon is UNLOADED, of course.

You very slowly squeeze the trigger double action and see if the cylinder locks up before the hammer falls. If it is close it may not matter too much, as most will shoot double action fast enough that the momentum of the cylinder will cause it to lock up before the hammer falls. If you shoot double action very slowly it would matter more.

 

[MCgunner]

Probably a cylinder alignment problem. Timing can be off a big and the gun will still shoot okay if pulling the trigger all the way back gets the cylinder to lock. And, as said, it usually has enough momentum to lock at any rate. I have one revolver that's off a little on one cylinder, but just after the sear breaks, as the trigger travels rearward, it locks fine. I check timing by putting some pressure with a finger on the cylinder and holding the hammer with the off thumb to dampen movement while slowly squeezing the gun DA. IF the hammer releases and the cylinder hasn't locked, timing is off. I do this on any new gun I'm looking at anymore. I've bought guns from several manufacturers that were off in the past, didn't effect function, but it's just one of those things that bugs me. I like a perfectly functioning gun.

Also, lots of times, the cylinder won't lock in DA before the sear breaks, but will lock SA when you draw back the hammer because the hammer rotates the cylinder just a little farther than does the trigger in DA. So, I always check timing in DA mode.

If, however, WHEN the cylinder is locked, the chambers or a chamber are not aligned properly with the barrel, you will get shaving. Also, could be the forcing cone isn't properly cut.

You should send the gun to Smith and Wesson, or that's what I'd do. Tell 'em about the inconsistent accuracy and that it's shaving bullet lead.

 

[Magic79]

Thanks for those comments. I hadn't realized that it could be off on one chamber, but of course that's correct. Last night, I checked timing and it appeared to lock fine before the sear breaking...but I only checked 2 or 3 chambers. I also shined a flashlight down the barrel and the chamber appeared to be in perfect alignment with the barrel. At the other end, the forcing cone looks to be symmetric and I didn't see any evidence of deposited jacket material on one side or the other.

Perhaps I will give S&W a call.

 

[Deanimator]

I've got EXACTLY the same problem with a Model 29-2 I just bought back from a friend. I left it with the guy who works on my guns. He looked at it and determined that it was AT LEAST a little out of time. With any luck, him adjusting the timing may fix the problem without my having to send it to S&W. Worst case scenario is I spend a few bucks to give S&W an ACCURATE picture of what's wrong with it before I send it.

If you don't have barrel problems, a decent smith should be able to adjust the timing without too much trouble. If it goes beyond that, you should send it to S&W. If it's the forcing cone out of square, the barrel will have to be pulled, milled square at the rear, then have the barrel hood lathed back so that the barrel can be screwed in far enough to properly index. According to Nonte's "Pistolsmithing", you CAN do it yourself, but it sounds like WAY more work than is justified. You end up having to use a blind file to trim back the hood, a pass at a time. Any more than that, and you risk removing too much hood, and having to start the process all over. You have to be EXTRA careful to keep everything square as well. What you'd spend at S&W is well worth the avoidance of aggravation.

 

[joneb]

After firing a full cylinder carefully examine firing pin strikes on the primers this could offer additional clues. I would think the bolt must be engaged with the cylinder before the hammer drops. A gun smith can insert a bore rod to check cylinder alignment. good luck

 

[Magic79]

UPDATE

UPDATE:
I took the gun to the range yesterday. In single action, there is no problem.

In double action slow fire, there is no problem.

HOWEVER...once I tried firing double action rapid fire, I started having problems.

ONE chamber, when fired fast, DOES NOT LOCK. The momentum of fast fire causes it to rotate past alignment with the barrel. I've never seen this before, nor has anyone at the range.

How about you knowledgeable folks...ever seen this? It's especially mysterious because it's just ONE chamber, and always the same. Always the same issue...it rotates past the barrel without locking.

Ideas? I'll probably call S&W on Monday.

 

[poe]

I've been shooting S&W,Colt,Ruger et al,. revolvers for over 40 years and have never encountered such a problem. A trip back to the factory is definately in order.

 

[MCgunner]

New one on me, too. I've fired all sorts of brands and models of revolvers and haven't seen it. I vote for a trip back to the factory, too. S&W will make it right.

 

[Magic79]

Update

Talked to Smith and Wesson today...very, very nice guy.

He said it's called "Throw By". Most likely cause is a worn locking groove on the cylinder. Worst case is a new cylinder (about $175). Could be worse!

I'll be sending it back tomorrow. Should come back perfect!