Rifle accuracy eval's

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GC51

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My dad gets the American Rifleman and I usually end up with them after he is done. I've noticed in the evaluations of new guns that the 100 yard groups seem pretty loose on the average. Even with reputable makers, a lot of these groups with the .308 are upwards of 1.5"...I'm no sniper or competition shooter, but that seems kind of lame. My model 600 was dis-continued in the late 70's, 79 I believe, so it's surely had some use, after floating the barrel I have gotten 3 shot groups at a .5" with it. The other day I went to check the scope on it and the first two shots were touching each other, the outflier was within a 1/2" of the other two(shooter error, no doubt) and this was off the hood of my F250 with a blanket and a rolled up coat for a sand-bag and shooting 150 gr Winchester factory loads...my group was high and to the right and I made adjustments to pull it back over the bulls-eye and now it's right where I want it...are these eval's indicative of a decline in the quality of newer firearms?
 
Do you shoot 5 consecutive five shot groups with whatever ammo you happen to have at hand, no free floating, no tweaking, no redos, no excuses?
 
So far I have only used win factory loads and usually only about a box at a time...usually shoot 3 shot groups, and no, I didn't check the gun before floating it...the group I mentioned was my best, but I have consistently shot .5" (after getting it sighted in 2" high @ 100) with just a Redfield 3-9x40 scope. My 700VLS in 22-250 I used to have would consistently hit 1/4-1/5" at 100 and I don't claim to be more than an average shooter...why I ask, I just ordered a new VLS in .308 and am hoping for better than 1.5-2" groups...as for excuses, I don't make them, if I get a bad group, I assume it is me...
 
Generally speaking 3 shot groups are usually the amount of shots used when hunting animals such as deer and elk etc., and other big game. In fact that is about all the shots you'll get at big game animals.

Naturally the accuracy feature comes in with 5 shot groups, however the barrel is generally of a stouter more expensive type, with barrel floating, or glass bedding, trigger work. The general over the counter rifle, is considered to be very accurate out of the box if it will shoot 1.5moa. I've been very fortunate to have several rifles that I bought brand new to shoot moa out of the box, and being as it is, I always had to tinker with them to make them shooter even tighter groups. Just the nature of the beast I guess.
 
Don't have my Rifleman magazine in front of me but, aren't the test usually done using the average of 10 five shot groups? That's 50 cumulative rounds for one particular rifle and one particular factory load.

I would say if you can get a factory "off the shelf" rifle shooting factory Ammo to do that under 1.5 MOA, buy it. I have never had one that shot that good. Sure, you can get an occasional 3 shot group to touch and that may be all you need for hunting.

I have custom guns that will shoot that well and better using tailored hand loads. It would not surprise me if manufacturers sent in guns for testing that were first runs using fresh tooling on their machines. Would not make much sense for them to send in a dog for evaluation.
 
I'd venture to say that the difference between American Rifleman's accuracy tests and individual internet claims of "MOA all day, every day, 24hrs a day", etc, are pretty obvious. One is actually a data driven test, the while the other generally lacks statistically significant data but makes up for it with perception and a dose of ego. :)
 
No firearm shoots the same size groups every time.

Benchrest aggregate records are the average of several 5- or 10-shot groups. At 100 yards, all the groups in one record have at least a 5X spread from the smallest to largest one. The agg records' groups are all under 3/10ths MOA at 100 yards, 4/10ths at 200 and 5/10ths MOA at 300 yards. Quite a contrast to the sub 1/10th MOA single 5- or 10-shot record group at one of those ranges.

Most individuals quote their stuff's accuracy by the smallest few-shot group fired. Doesn't matter than all the other groups were larger; much, much larger at the big end.

I'm convinced the smallest groups happen when all the variables tend to cancel each other out in all directions. Rarely, if ever, do they happen when everything is perfect and doesn't vary any amount whatsoever.
 
Fire 10 groups, take an average. Just because I have fired a 1/2" group with a rifle once, doesnt make it a 1/2" rifle. Its probably a 1" rifle that has produced a 1/2" group....
 
I didn't mean to say I get 1/2" groups every time, just that I have gotten them often enough to feel the gun is capable of it. I've also seen others get groups like that often enough to feel the same...I didn't mean to bash the shooters either, I'm sure if they are testing for the NRA they are much better shooters than I, and I would never get a 1/2" without 'bagging the gun. I also didn't think about the multiple group averaging, so that puts a new light on things...so, given a competent shooter, decent scope,good ammo,and good conditions, what kind of groups can I expect from the new VLS? As always, thanks for the input and my question about quality has been pretty much answered...hell, maybe the wind is just helpin' me out!
 
For reference: A "typical" AR with decent ammo will typically fire better than 3 MOA (pretty typical for a mil gun firing SS109). A current production "shelf" hunting rifle with "standard" (as opposed to match grade) ammo, properly set up, is good for 1.5-2 MOA (wally world rifles- nothing wrong with them and what I use for hunting 90% of the time. To consistently get to 1 MOA or better, it generally requires more $ on the rifle, optic, ammo, and a fair amount of skill on the part of the shooter. I do have rifles capable of anything from .5 MOA- 1 MOA.
 
I'd venture to say that the difference between American Rifleman's accuracy tests and individual internet claims of "MOA all day, every day, 24hrs a day", etc, are pretty obvious. One is actually a data driven test, the while the other generally lacks statistically significant data but makes up for it with perception and a dose of ego.

This is the reality of the internet. I see so many pictures posted of one great group while not showing the rest of the target that I know that most of the claims of 1/2" accuracy all day are pure B.S......the real dead giveaway is when someone says "my factory (insert brand name) will shoot 1/2" groups all day long".....on the other hand it's not out of the ordinary to get lucky once in a while and get a 1/2 incher though.

I've owned lots and lots of rifles over the years and only a handful were capable of shooting that well right out of the box but usually involved some careful handload testing to get there.

My guess is that when the guys writing the articles for American Rifleman and the like show 1.5"+ sized groups they are giving a factual representation of how the rifle really shoots.....

I've stopped reading many of the NRA magazine articles because most of the reviews are of guns that are astronomically expensive. There's pretty much no chance that I'll ever own any of them. "The armed citizen" is the best part of those particular publications.


I also didn't think about the multiple group averaging, so that puts a new light on things...so, given a competent shooter, decent scope,good ammo,and good conditions, what kind of groups can I expect from the new VLS?

GC51....I'd fully expect that rifle to average around an inch....with most any ammo you'll put through it. To tell you the truth that is pretty darn good for a factory rig. I'd be happy with it anyway.
 
All you paper punchers. Respectable cold bore shots are what is important. The op is probably a good shot. A lot of folks are just poor shots and blame their equipment.
 
The results are in! I just took my 600 out and shot 4 five shot groups, one box. The first 5 shot group was widened significantly, thanks to two outfliers, about 1 1/4...by the time I averaged in the other 3 groups, I was looking at close to 2", yikes...fortunately it started raining before before I blew it any further...I am humbled!
 
Hand-loading is going to be my next endeavor, I haven't gone there yet, but will be looking at a reloading set-up this fall...we are kind of at the mercy of availability here for off the shelf ammo, small town and the hardware store is the only place to even get it, sometimes I can't even rely on getting the same gr weight from time to time, thus, the planned move to reloading...be ready for questions, I know nothing about reloading! Thanks everyone for all the responses, I'll be working on my five shot groups...
 
If statistical significance is important, here's the credibility different round counts have for any measure; pressure, velocity, accuracy, .....

3 shot test data can vary as much as 60% less to 250% more of the first one if you shoot 20 of them. Don't count on the first one to have either the biggest or smallest number; they're all random. In effect, you're rolling several pairs of dice with 7 being the middle of their range, 1 at the low end and 12 at the high end. Their axis is at all numbers around the clock. Nobody rolls 7 every time.

For 5 shot tests will have 33% less to 150% more spread than the first one if 20 tests are made.

10 shot test, 20% less to 25% more.

20 shot test, 11% less to 12% more.

30 shot test, 8% less to 9% more.

50 shot test, 5% less to 6% more.

How much confidence do you want that some round's numbers are meaningful?

Here's a test group of M118 7.62 NATO used in the 1965 National Match ammo containing 270 shots at 600 yards. Inner circle's 6", outer is 12". Mean (average) radius of each shot from group center is 1.9". All 90 three-shot groups clustered into a 270 composite about 10 inches extreme spread.

21921672136_f980944930.jpg
 
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No firearm shoots the same size groups every time.

Benchrest aggregate records are the average of several 5- or 10-shot groups. At 100 yards, all the groups in one record have at least a 5X spread from the smallest to largest one. The agg records' groups are all under 3/10ths MOA at 100 yards, 4/10ths at 200 and 5/10ths MOA at 300 yards. Quite a contrast to the sub 1/10th MOA single 5- or 10-shot record group at one of those ranges.

Most individuals quote their stuff's accuracy by the smallest few-shot group fired. Doesn't matter than all the other groups were larger; much, much larger at the big end.

I'm convinced the smallest groups happen when all the variables tend to cancel each other out in all directions. Rarely, if ever, do they happen when everything is perfect and doesn't vary any amount whatsoever.

Certainly group sizes vary, but in non-benchrest applications they don't vary by nearly as much. I'd say for most field applications with a sub-MOA rifle, you're looking at less than a 2x ratio unless a) you're not a very good shooter or b) there's a lot of shifting wind or c) you're at very long distance.
 
Here's a test group of M118 7.62 NATO used in the 1965 National Match ammo containing 270 shots at 600 yards. Inner circle's 6", outer is 12". Mean (average) radius of each shot from group center is 1.9". All 90 three-shot groups clustered into a 270 composite about 10 inches extreme spread.

21921672136_f980944930.jpg

Something is very odd about that group. Assuming a velocity SD of 15 (and I suspect M118 was probably worse than that) you'd get 5-6" of vertical stringing at 600y. So the fact that the group is round is more than a little surprising.
 
Well what is your criteria for accuracy?, and the number of rounds that must cluster within your accuracy definition?

Many are quoting gun writer definitions that three shot groups are the “Gold Standard”. If you really examine their motives, Gun writers get paid a flat fee for an article, so whatever justification they use, it all comes down to increasing their paycheck by decreasing the amount of labor to get it. Since our culture is the creation of advertising bureaus, the shooting public generally believes that the “Gold Standard” for accuracy is three round groups, because these all wise Gun writers said so. However articles in the popular press do contain rather funny results due to the lack of testing. The writers for Handloader regularly shoot three shot groups, and this month, one gun writer is claiming sub half MOA groups for a 35 Rem Marlin lever action. I remember an earlier article where he was claiming sub half MOA groups for cast bullets fired in a 30-30 lever action. If you are a heavy dope smoker, you might believe that these lever actions are ½ MOA accurate, but what you are actually seeing is the distortion caused by small sample sizes. Whatever data the gun writer is presenting is not a true measure of the capability of the gun or the ammunition. Larger sample sizes do show larger groups because the chance of a 1:100 event is larger, but you are not going to see enough rounds fired down range in any print article to determine the inherent accuracy of the weapon, or the load. And you the reader, just love that. Gun writers traditionally cull “flyers” out of their groups anyway, because they are biased to report wonderful results. They are under great pressure to make the weapon they are shooting the absolute best, rooting tooting shooting iron ever built. That is, if they want another commissioned article. Gun writers are already coming up with excuses for one shot groups, so called “cold bore” accuracy, and after that will be “virtual accuracy”. Virtual accuracy will consist of what the Gun writer dreams in his head, at his keyboard, for what he thinks the weapon will do.

For smallbore, each match is based on two 20 round targets. In a 160 round match, there are four 40 round matches to be shot. I would say, you want to know at least how your rifle shoots for 40 rounds if you want to be the winner of a match. Your rifle and ammunition better be shooting consistently for all 160 record rounds if you want to win the aggregate. Highpower rifle, each match is 20 rounds, 20 rounds standing 200 yards, 20 rounds sitting rapid fire 200 yards, 20 rounds prone rapid fire 300 yards, and 20 rounds slow fire 600 yards. You get bragging rights for winning a match at the Nationals, and of course, you want to win the 80 round aggregate. It has been said correctly, you win standing and lose prone slow fire. Accurate shooting while standing is more of a test of the shooter than the rifle and load, but get out to 600 yards, and your rifle and load better be very accurate. And your rifle better be holding its zero by the time you get out to 600 yards, you have already put 60 shot for record through the thing by the time you set your equipment on the line. I have heard good shooters state that they want a rifle and a load that as a minimum, will shoot half the size of the X ring at distance. The X ring is 6 inches in diameter at 600 yards, which is 1 MOA, a rifle and load that shoots half the size of the X ring will have to shoot under ½ MOA. That is a lot to ask of a rifle and cartridge.

The more you shoot, the more you find that most internet claims are based on small groups and limited sample sizes. A shooting bud of mine, who shot with Larry Moore, a Wimbledon Cup Champion, asked him “just how many rounds do you need to fire to have confidence in a load?”, and Larry replied :”about 20,000”!. Larry tested every service rifle from after WW2 to the 1960’s at Aberdeen Test Ground, so he had a lot of free ammunition to shoot, and to observe the performance characteristics of both rifles and ammunition.
 
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while the other generally lacks statistically significant data but makes up for it with perception and a dose of ego.
So true.
 
Jim Watson nailed it on the 2nd post.

Currently the American Rifleman is shooting five shot groups. And everyone thinks this is just wonderful, the height of objective and well planned testing, etc, etc, etc. Well it used to be that the American Rifleman used ten shot groups as a basis of comparison, and no one remembers or even knows. It is as if the shooting community has had a pre frontal lobotomy.

Which goes to support my contention that our culture is a creation of Corporate Advertising Bureaus. You think the way you do because someone has opened the lid to your brain case and filled your head with nonsense. And you love it.
 
Something is very odd about that group. Assuming a velocity SD of 15 (and I suspect M118 was probably worse than that) you'd get 5-6" of vertical stringing at 600y. So the fact that the group is round is more than a little surprising.
An SD of about 13 fps for that military match bullet has about a 40 fps spread in muzzle velocity. Averaging 2600 fps at the muzzle, the reason the vertical spread's about 10 inches is due to the bullets.

Those bullets have enough imbalance, BC spread and non-uniform heel dimensions to cause trajectories to not be all that consistent. Poor heel dimensions lets one edge exit the crown before its opposite edge. A bit heavy on one side means their centrifugal force upon exit moves them off the bore axis in addition to causing them to wobble more decreasing their BC from about .540 to some lesser value.
Add all those things up in all directions and you'll understand why the military teams often replaced those bullets with Sierra 168's or 180's and got accuracy under 1 MOA for as many shots with M14NM's and M1's.
 
I do remember when 10 round groups were the standard of accuracy,
But the NRA 5x5 is the toughest present widely published measure.
And it takes a serous shooter to shoot simulated matches with even longer strings.

The next time you see a glossy picture of a rifle and an ammo box on the target allegedly shot with that combination, stop to wonder what might be UNDER the props.
 
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