Rifle caliber over-penetration question..

[Trent]

Yet another question on caliber selection for home defense... I own quite a few different weapons in different calibers. I live in the country, and have one neighbor that is about 100 yards away, and in the other directions there's nothing but forest. The neighbor has a brick house. My house is 6" wood framed, filled with blown insulation, has vinyl siding.

I figure 223 would fragment as it leaves my house and goes through the mess of drywall/insulation/plywood, and not get to their house in one sufficiently large piece to penetrate, but what about larger calibers? Specifically, 308... would 308 have enough energy to exit my house, stay together, and potentially penetrate through their brick house? I've seen 7.62x39 penetrate 11" of pine before; 308 has a lot more energy, but I don't know what effect masonry would have on the projectiles.

The range I belong to prohibits shooting bricks or other hard objects (for good reason, they don't want any projectiles leaving the property), and would even frown heavily on shooting anything messy like drywall, so doing testing isn't an option.

Thanks in advance for any insight!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Depends on the .308 round used... something like a 110gr Hornady Vmax actually penetrates less than some .223 - and it makes a big hole when it hits something as well.

 

[BrocLuno]

It's about the bullet, not necessarily the caliber. There are many that will fragment on impact with hard objects. All used in "city" scapes to minimize ricochet damage.

 

[Tirod]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

The testing has been done for you.

Home invasion is a low percentage issue, bullets flying through your neighbor's walls, however, are almost guaranteed. You might not ever pull the trigger to defend yourself, once you do, any bullet headed in the neighbor's direction will likely get there. No guarantee you'll hit brick, it could just pass through a window.

The better option is the prevent defense, why was the property so attractive to invasion in the first place? After that, a serious look and rehearsal of the shooting lanes will expose the potential problem areas. Then you can work on them. All that reduces the likelihood of even aiming toward the neighbors.

At that point, how much power, and what kind of projectile do you really need at distances of less than 20 feet? Can it be delivered from a firearm that easily negotiates the obstacles and hazards in the house? A .308 bolt or semi auto may not be the best choice there.

It's not to say all that wasn't already considered. Sometimes the obvious gets missed, and shooting any gun in a house means a high probability of bullets leaving it - much more than a fantasy bad guy entering it.

 

[benEzra]

The Box o'Truth has not to date tested .223 JHP in drywall, and tests that do not duplicate realistic wall spacing are useless. Such tests have been done elsewhere, though, and in those tests good .223 JHP typically penetrates less in drywall than 9mm JHP or 00 buckshot. Unfragmented .223 will certainly not penetrate a mortared brick wall at 100 yards, though it could certainly penetrate a window.

Decent 7.62x39mm JHP shouldn't penetrate a brick exterior wall at 100 yards either, but again there is the window issue, and 7.62x39 would be more likely to exit an exterior wall of your house intact, since your house isn't brick.

In your situation, I'd probably go with a midweight .223 hollowpoint, something like Federal 55gr JHPBT, unless your home layout is such that shots would never be fired in your neighbor's direction.

 

[henschman]

I fired my CETME in my house one time several years back. I was shooting Portugese NATO surplus 147 grain ball. It went through the wooden side of a dresser, which was about a half inch thinck, at a very oblique angle. It came out and went through the wall behind at a fairly straight-on angle, leaving a hole larger than bullet diameter, so it was already de-stabilized and mushroomed by this point. It went through a stud going through this wall. It left a larger hole exiting the wall into the hallway beyond, and fragmented. The other side of the hallway (which was 3 feet wide or so) was peppered with fragments, with one larger hole that a part of the bullet was lodged in. No part of the bullet made it through that wall into the room on the other side.

I fired a 7.62x39 platform inside once with 126 grain hollow points out of a 10" barrel. It went straight into a dresser drawer full of papers (shredding them), came out the back, and went into the drywall but did not penetrate all the way through the wall.

 

[Al Thompson]

To date, this is the best dry wall penetration test available (IMHO):

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-(Adpat)

 

[jfdavis58]

Instead of playing roulette with a statistical anomaly check out what the law says in your state and make plans accordingly. In many states you are protected from criminal liability during a self defense situation; in some there is a $ cap on civil liability as well.

Tirod has provided the other details wrt shooting lanes, caliber selection, etc.

 

[Trent]

Shooting lanes are already thought out. I've got 5 kids so that was the FIRST consideration. There's only one point of entrance that's an issues; if an aggressor comes in through the garage while I'm on the main floor, the neighbor's house is a real concern.

We're out in the middle of nowhere. Police response would be a minimum of 6 minutes, but probably closer to 20-30 minutes. That's forever and a day in an emergency, so we're pretty much on our own.

There's not a lot of crime around here, hell, it's the country. The first couple of years we lived here I just kept a 22 loaded up for stray varmints that wander in the yard from time to time.

Then, a year ago, a family of 5 was beaten to death in their home not far away, kids included. The only survivor was a 3 year old toddler. Yeah, real horror movie type stuff, right? Spend my adult life thinking that stuff just don't happen.. but then it DID happen, and not far down the road. Anyway, it got me thinking a LOT more seriously about home defense.

Here's the story if you're interested. Hope the CNN link don't bother too many people... (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-24/....deaths_1_nichols-beaten-tip-line?_s=PM:CRIME)

Our house is a complex layout, 5 floors, 6 entrances, not exactly a fortress, and not at all easy to plan for putting up a decent defense. I figure self-defense situations never occur at a time of our choosing, so I have positioned weapons throughout the house. I figure any intruders wouldn't wait for me to climb 29 stairs to go get a gun out of the closet.

Both of my sons, and my wife, have become sufficiently skilled at using them, and my three daughters are all very aware of gun safety, so the loaded weapons / children interaction aren't a concern. They've been raised around guns and taught the golden rules since they first started babbling incoherent gibberish.

On the main floor I've been keeping a PS90. I chose this because it has minimal penetration (not for the vastly over-sized ammo supply). Arguably it's too weak for defense purposes, but I figure it's accurate enough at conversational distances, and short and nimble. Shot placement counts for a lot, in my opinion, and I'm able to get on target fast with that rifle - probably faster than any other rifle I own. That, and it's small and unobtrusive, and easy to tuck away unseen. The 40 grain projectiles are thin skinned and fragment well so shouldn't pose a problem for neighbors.

In the bedroom, I keep a 12 gauge with 00 shot. All the kids sleep upstairs, so any intruder coming in from a lower level can be met without as much worry about what's beyond them. The 12 gauge is mighty reassuring if I'm woken at night by the alarm, not quite as picky about shot placement, just aim center of mass and let the spread work for me, and more stable than a handgun if my hands are shaking. The floors are very thick wood (3" thick) so penetration won't be as much of an issue, shouldn't damage any infrastructure to the house. Hitting primers or ammo in the reloading room might spell for a real bad day, so I've positioned those in the best protected areas of the house. Pets are a concern, obviously, wouldn't want to hit my dogs, but ... can't exactly plan where they'll be. If they were to get hit, 00 buck should be merciful at least.

I have have handguns tucked away in unexpected but reasonably quick-to-access locations. Nothing laying in the open an attacker could grab, if you didn't know where to look, you'd have to look a GOOD long while to find them. If you know where to look, you're never more than 6-10 steps away from one. The logic there is a gun out of reach is worthless, and who knows where I'd be at if one was needed immediately.

Yeah, it sort of sounds a bit paranoid when written out. But, if someone were to bust in unannounced, how many steps would I have to reach a firearm before I simply become an unarmed target? I figure it'd take well under 5 seconds for someone to kick in the door and draw a bead on me or a family member. That's not much time to grab something useful. A simpler alternative is just carrying a sidearm around the house constantly wherever I go, but that seems even more paranoid. And, that doesn't solve the armed-family member issue. If I'm hit first and go down, they still have a good chance of survival.

Don't know, maybe I've already thought it out too far, but, I was also thinking I may have not thought it through quite enough, so took the risk of posting what could turn out being yet another dumb question. Then again, the only dumb questions are the ones not asked.

I appreciate the feedback and welcome any additional level headed advice. I understand that "sight unseen" it's kind of asking a lot.

Any other things I might consider? Or have I already overthought this?

 

[LAK]

There is no paranoia in wearing one around the home IMO. It is as sane as history. I would wean the wife into the idea of doing this as well at some point.

Having said that, it is still probably a good idea to have others stashed away on each floor as back ups and available to your family members.

I would not worry about over penetration so much. Any 150 grain softpoint bullet that has passed through the torso of a human target at muzzle to five yard distances is not likely to be dangerous to anyone outside unless it goes out of one of your windows, and even then it is not going to be going very fast or far.

I would consider the practical issues of shooting inside a house. A .308 would be better suited to your geographical area in consideration of any trouble outside the home IMO. However, bear in mind that shooting one inside the confines of the home is going to split your ears (and everyone else's), and a .223 or a 12 gauge is going to do close to the same for that matter.

I am not suggesting that hearing loss should be a concern before survival, but rather that such a ruckus might be disorientating. If you are ready for it as it were that is fine; using lightly constructed softpoint 150 grain bullets, at across the room distances you will only likely need one center mass placed bullet for each "invader".

A good alternative IMO is a 30-30 lever rifle. Again, .30 caliber 150 grain hunting type softpoint bullets with very similar terminal effect in a managable and easy handling package. Slightly less noise and blast - but not much. Still a better choice IMO.

It is apparent to me though that you have overlooked significantly hardening your doors - particularly the one you have the most concern over that comes from the garage. Steel frame, and put a steel door faced with wood or painted in it's place. Doesn't matter that it is fixed into a wood structure, it will take anyone short of the Hulk a long time to dismantle it even with heavy tools. Plenty of warning for you and the family.

You want to reduce the speed with which anyone can gain forced access into the house without making alot of noise. This applies to window openings as well. You can always make a door or window opening extremely difficult to breach from the outside, but as simple as turning a small handle to open from the inside. If you have the funds, you can do alot with steel shutters over windows. They don't have to look ugly, they can be faced with wood and or painted.

Only other thing is that while you have not stated what handguns you have stashed all over the house I am tempted to guess and suggest - perhaps wrongly - that they are a variety of types you have aquired over a period of time. This is fine if everyone is proficient with all of them at any time, on demand. Otherwise I would suggest a measure of standardization, at least with the "stash" guns around the home that any member of the household might need to just grab and put into action with two seconds of notice.

-------------------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[EHCRain10]

I had an old brick wall that need to be torn down once and decided to shoot it a few times to see how much penetration could be expected ( the wall was pushed over with my bare hands afterward, in all places even where is wasn't shot). 308 and 223 FMJ both had no penetration unless they hit the mortar and then it was only fractions of an inch. Your worst case scenario would be hitting a window in the neighbors house.

 

[benEzra]

On the main floor I've been keeping a PS90. I chose this because it has minimal penetration (not for the vastly over-sized ammo supply). Arguably it's too weak for defense purposes, but I figure it's accurate enough at conversational distances, and short and nimble. Shot placement counts for a lot, in my opinion, and I'm able to get on target fast with that rifle - probably faster than any other rifle I own. That, and it's small and unobtrusive, and easy to tuck away unseen. The 40 grain projectiles are thin skinned and fragment well so shouldn't pose a problem for neighbors.

I think the PS90 is actually a pretty good idea. I'd probably go with a JHP in the 50 to 55 grain weight range if they make one, though; I like 40's for situations in which absolutely minimum wall penetration is a requirement (say, HD in an apartment), but it sounds like you could safely go a bit heaver and still not present a risk to your neighbor.

I would consider the practical issues of shooting inside a house. A .308 would be better suited to your geographical area in consideration of any trouble outside the home IMO. However, bear in mind that shooting one inside the confines of the home is going to split your ears (and everyone else's), and a .223 or a 12 gauge is going to do close to the same for that matter.

I am not suggesting that hearing loss should be a concern before survival, but rather that such a ruckus might be disorientating. If you are ready for it as it were that is fine; using lightly constructed softpoint 150 grain bullets, at across the room distances you will only likely need one center mass placed bullet for each "invader".

A good alternative IMO is a 30-30 lever rifle. Again, .30 caliber 150 grain hunting type softpoint bullets with very similar terminal effect in a managable and easy handling package. Slightly less noise and blast - but not much. Still a better choice IMO.

Noise and blast are about the same between .30-30, .223, and 7.62x39mm, given comparable barrel lengths, unless the .223 or 7.62x39 is running a brake, and a .223 with a good flash suppressor will have less blast than a .30-30 with no flash suppressor (again assuming comparable barrel length), though you could certainly have a .30-30 threaded for a .30 caliber Vortex. Effectiveness, given good load choice, would probably be similar as well among those three calibers.

One other thing to consider is the ease of mounting a light (important on an HD long gun, IMO).

As far as .223 vs. .308, IMO you lose a little capability indoors with .308 due to greater size and weight, more recoil, and less capacity, and in the current context I would think that indoor capability would be more important than long-distance KE or cover penetration.

 

[mbogo]

In .308, look at the Glaser Safety Slug loads; they use #12 shot inside a large hollow-point (capped with epoxy). Corbon also had a 125gr Ballistic Tip load that would be effective at close range without over-penetrating.

mbogo

 

[Trent]

One other question I have. Would I face any after-incident issues using an AR, AK, FS2000, PS90, etc, for defense? I'm concerned that dropping an intruder with an AK47 or P90 would make me look rather bloodthirsty in front of a jury of my peers. Is this something I should be concerned with? Or would it fall more under the lines of "that dumbass picked the wrong house to assault"?

Or do I even have to worry about a jury if I ever used a weapon in a justifiable self-defense situation in IL?

 

[LAK]

One other question I have. Would I face any after-incident issues using an AR, AK, FS2000, PS90, etc, for defense? I'm concerned that dropping an intruder with an AK47 or P90 would make me look rather bloodthirsty in front of a jury of my peers. Is this something I should be concerned with? Or would it fall more under the lines of "that dumbass picked the wrong house to assault"?

Or do I even have to worry about a jury if I ever used a weapon in a justifiable self-defense situation in IL?

In regards to the last point, the potential for a jury trial is always there. The question is what are your state laws concerning self defense and the use of deadly force.

On the subject of "what guns"; it is a manipulative and fear inducing factor without any moral or legal basis.

If you are indicted and brought before a jury in a court, your attorney should ensure that the jury is aware that it is the justification for the use of deadly force that is the issue before them, and that alone. If not, you need to drop that attorney and get another. If need be fire him/her in the courtroom right then and there before they allow the prosecution to sink your ship with that nonsense.

So; IF DEADLY FORCED IS JUSTIFIED, it does not matter what you use to defend yourself. It has no moral or legal bearing on your decision or justification. It is superfluous. Whether it is a PS90 or a two by four. Deadly force is deadly force.

---------------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[hammerklavier]

Hey, henschman, could you test fire some 75gr tap .223 in your house for me and let us know how it does?

 

[Trent]

I fired my CETME in my house one time several years back. I was shooting Portugese NATO surplus 147 grain ball. It went through the wooden side of a dresser, which was about a half inch thinck, at a very oblique angle. It came out and went through the wall behind at a fairly straight-on angle, leaving a hole larger than bullet diameter, so it was already de-stabilized and mushroomed by this point. It went through a stud going through this wall. It left a larger hole exiting the wall into the hallway beyond, and fragmented. The other side of the hallway (which was 3 feet wide or so) was peppered with fragments, with one larger hole that a part of the bullet was lodged in. No part of the bullet made it through that wall into the room on the other side.

I fired a 7.62x39 platform inside once with 126 grain hollow points out of a 10" barrel. It went straight into a dresser drawer full of papers (shredding them), came out the back, and went into the drywall but did not penetrate all the way through the wall.

I've had one AD also, when I was in my early 20's. MAK 90 was leaning up against the kitchen counter, loaded magazine on the counter. I picked it up, set the butt-stock of the rifle on the counter, yanked the charging handle back to clear it. Let the charging handle go, and dropped the trigger.

I'd neglected to check if a loaded magazine was in the weapon - seeing the loaded one on the counter I assumed I'd already removed it. Turns out there were two, and one was in the weapon.

Muzzle was approximately 5" in front of my nose when I pulled the trigger - I was holding it straight up, buttstock on the kitchen counter. I didn't even hear the shot. Everything went white for a few seconds, then my vision returned blurry - tears started streaming out of my eyes. My nose was bleeding. I regained my composure and cleared the weapon properly. Then I felt a tug on my shoulder.

My buddy was in the livingroom when the weapon discharged, and when he heard the shot he came running in to the kitchen. When I looked at him I could see his mouth moving, but couldn't hear any words. A minute or so later, they started ringing, and I could make out some sounds. The ringing finally died off after about 48 hours and my hearing returned to full normal (amazing I didn't rupture the drums).

Ever after that day, I visually inspect that there is no magazine and also visually check the chamber to make sure there's not a round in it. I've also got in the habit of feeling for a round with my finger while holding the bolt open. This visual inspection happens EVERY single time. 13 years have passed and I haven't had another AD.

I've been injured by this process only once, when my hand holding an AK charging handle back slipped, and the bolt closed on my right thumb, splitting the nail in two. Boy did that smart. But, I'd rather take the risk at a smashed finger than another AD, so I feel for casings (also lets me know how dirty the ramp/chamber is!). My eyes, they can get distracted by my brain, but fingers don't lie; they feel an empty chamber, and it registers.

After checking the chamber / magazine well is empty, I now always point the weapon in the safest direction available to dry fire and release spring tension. Depending on where I'm at, this sometimes means walking across the room to point it out the window at the ground outside.

Then ammunition is separated from the weapon physically; I don't keep magazines in near proximity to the weapon. The only exceptions, are the ones I leave loaded for emergency.

I did cut a small section of the ceiling away later; that 7.62x39 bullet went through the drywall ceiling, miraculously hit a 12" stud dead center. It traversed 11" of the wood stud, curved and exited the side, and several fragments lodged in the plywood roof. No fragments penetrated through or left the building. But, 11" of wood penetration is pretty remarkable, all things considered. Had the round NOT hit the stud center, it would have cooked right on out of the building and went in to orbit.