Rifle choice and economics

[nobody_special]

I got my first pistol (Taurus 24/7 Pro 9mm) a couple months ago and enjoy shooting it. Originally I wanted a rifle, and I still do.

The rifle would be used for plinking/target practice, but kept for SHTF scenarios. (I imagine if I was in NOLA during Katrina, I'd have wanted a rifle. Then again, I'd have vacated... but I'm sure you get the idea.) I'd prefer .308 over .223 for the power and accuracy, especially since I'm not likely to buy more than one rifle. An autoloader is a requirement, and I'm looking for something that is durable, reliable, powerful, accurate.

This would likely be my only rifle purchase, so I want to "get it right." I'll be willing to spend a bit for quality. Budget is an issue, but I can save money to a degree. I can't justify a $2000 rifle, but something less than that - say, in the $1000-$1500 range or therabouts, would be okay.

After scouring several forums, I started looking at the various models of JBL PTR-91 and the DSA STG-58 or SA-58s, all in .308. Both look good, though the FAL ergonomics do appear to be better. I've seen claims of a difference in accuracy favoring the PTR-91, but I've also seen claims that they're similar. I'm sure either would do fine.

I've seen that some of the DSA models (not the basic rifle though!) are available with a duracoat finish. I'm not sure what this is, but it'd be nice to have a rifle that has a good treatment on the metal parts to preclude corrosion (I'm thinking of finishes like those on Glocks or HK USP's). Again, quality: if it's to be the only rifle, it should be built to last. Does the duracoat finish fit in this category? How is the finish on the PTR-91's?

I haven't seen any comments about the grip angle on the FAL. It appears to be raked back at a pretty severe angle. Is that comfortable? The PTR grip angle looks normal.

I haven't decided on barrel length - a carbine-length barrel would be more practical, but I like the idea of shooting a longer gun at the range... better accuracy and higher muzzle velocity. Any comments? The PTR-91KFM4 and DSA SA-58TAC seem good for carbines; both are at the upper end of my price range. I'm not sure but whether I'd be better off with just a basic rifle though.

I noticed today that the surplus .308 ammunition market has almost completely dried up. Even the cheap Russian 9x19 mm ammo is sold out in many places, which is worrying since I'm about halfway through the 1000 rounds of ammo that I purchased when I got the Taurus. And non-surplus .308 is expensive - I'm seeing prices in the range of $0.50/cartridge. I could see myself spending half as much on ammo as on the rifle.

Should I be looking at AR clones? I'm not thrilled with AK's reputation for mediocre accuracy, and I'd really prefer a full power rifle anyway. Are there others that I should look at?

Of course, one thing that is really holding me back (and was a factor in getting a pistol instead of a rifle) is that I hope to move back to California in a couple years. None of these weapons are CA legal except for some expensive DSA models that use stripper clips and fixed 10 round magazines. And there's no way to know what might be banned in CA in another year or two...

...maybe I should just stick to the pistol?

 

[Kaylee]

No, get a rifle.

I think for your intended uses an AR would be just fine. It isn't a .308, but it's plenty powerful enough for self defense use at any range you'll be justified in shooting most likely. A very good model is well within your price range, and they're a delight for paper punching as well.

However, the California move nixes that. If you're intent on going, with the laws as they stand today you're probably best off with an M1A or other M14 clone. Failing that, an M1 Garand. Both are relatively PC-looking (and presently not banned in CA) semi rifles.. in .308 and .30-06 respectively.

But as you said, there's no guarantee they won't be banned for import by the time you're ready to go. CA ... ugh.

 

[jagdpanzer347]

Nobody Special, welcome to THR. At first I was 'gonna say give the DSA STG and SA series a serious look. The most important thing is to find a rifle that you are comfortable with and "feels" right. However, since you plan on moving back to California, your choices are obviously very limited.

If you want a .30 rifle it looks like it'll be a M14 clone or an M1 Garand. I have no first hand experience with M14s, but I do have a couple of Garands and really like them.

If you want more of a carbine, probably a Ruger Mini14 or an M1 carbine. The Mini is a decent plinker and defensive rifle as long as you have reliable magazines. The carbine is ligher, shorter and not as powerful. I hope to get one from the CMP soon. Hope this helps.

-jagd

 

[ozwyn]

Well...

For a katrina-like circumstance, You might be justy as well off with a levergun and spending the enarly 1k in savings on practice and ammo.

It might reload a little slow, but with enough practice and good shooting you may not need to worry so much anyway. I have yet to hear of any accounts of looters or similiar types willing to continue a gun battle if 2-3 of their number are dropped by accurate rifle fire.

a good old fashioned .30-30 might be plenty with the shooter has the practice/skills/determination, and for a bugging in situation you can also afford to have a couple of spares. (one rifle is personal defense, 4 rifles is a safe neighborhood)

 

[Juna]

If I had that much money to spend on a rifle, I'd opt for an AR-15. The caliber is plenty potent enough for any SHTF scenario you're likely to face, and the rifle is lightweight and accurate. The modular nature of the AR-15 also gives you the option of getting other caliber uppers down the road if you still want to stick with one single rifle.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Juna, .308 upper on a .223 AR lower? If it can be done, it'll turn the gun into a single-shot. A .308 mag won't fit in a .223 AR lower.

If you're determined to get a .308 semi-auto, the AR-10 and M-14 clone are good choices. With California in your future, that might eliminate the AR-10. Are M-14 clones still legal in CA? With standard 20-round mags?

 

[Wedge]

nobody_special. Welcome to THR!

In your situation I would go with the M1A. Shoots .308, CA legal and on my wish list.

You mentioned ammo costs being an issue. For a rifle if you plan on shooting it a lot I would seriously consider getting set up for handloading. You aren't going to be shooting 100's of rounds of .308 or .30-'06 ammo in one sitting (well at least I wouldn't be) so getting set up with a single stage kit would be a fairly minimal price (I got set up for around $200 including calipers, tumbler, media separator). At 50cents to $1 a shot for rifle ammo it would make a big difference. Tailoring for recoil and accuracy comes with the territory of handloading so your ammo will be more accurate than what is commercially available.

Say you spend ~$300 on handloading equipment & components and are able to turn out 300 rounds with what you bought. (equipment $200, 2lbs of powder $38, 300 primers $7, 300 bullets $50, assume re-use of brass but the first 100 costs $30). At 60 cents a shot I would say that the equipment was paid for in the first 300 rounds...still a little in the red you probably need 450 rounds total to totally break even on initial investments. After that you are spending maybe 30 cents a shot (same as dirty as hell Wolf Steel see below).

Cabelas has reman'd .308 for 70 cents a shot.
Midway USA has:
Steel cased Wolf is 30 cents a shot
Brass cased Wolf is 62 cents a shot
WWB is 72 cents a shot

Best of luck!

 

[nobody_special]

Are M-14 clones still legal in CA? With standard 20-round mags?

Definitely not with 20 round mags; 10 rounds is the limit. With a detachable magazine, all of the following are banned in CA:

A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
A thumbhole stock.
A folding or telescoping stock.
A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
A flash suppressor.
A forward pistol grip.
And, regardless of whether or not it has a detachable magazine:
A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.



I just had a look at Springfield's web site - they list M1 Garands and M1As that are CA-friendly, but It's not clear if they are actually available. (The Garand version certainly is not.) These are fairly expensive also.

 

[ocabj]

The only problems you have with the Springfield Armory M1A is the flash hider and the 20 round mags. You have to take off the flash hider when you move the California (and you can't bring the 20s).

One of the guys at my club has a Springfield M1A as a backup for the AR in NRA/CMP service rifle. He had the flash hider on the M1A, but didn't register it so he replaced it with a Springfield Armory muzzle brake. Unfortunately, according to him, it lost all accuracy with SA Inc's brake. So he bought a third party muzzle brake (I don't remember the name), and it fixed the accuracy issue.

 

[Kaylee]

I just had a look at Springfield's web site - they list M1 Garands and M1As that are CA-friendly, but It's not clear if they are actually available. (The Garand version certainly is not.) These are fairly expensive also.

They can be, yes. Check out yuor local shops, scan gunbroker, that kind of thing. With some looking you should be able to find M14 clones running from the high 600s (Polytech) to $$$$ (custom pieces with lots of USGI parts). The M1A is a nice middle ground between those, and if you shop around you can likely find a second hand one in the 1000-1250 range.

You can get a gov't issue M1 retail from the mid-high 600s and up. Doesn't ODCMP still have some beaters for not much?


In your place I'd be looking at either an M1A (prolly 18" "scout" model), or quite possibly just an M1.

 

[nobody_special]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I appreciate it.

Wedge, can you (or anybody else) point me to a how-to for reloading? I have good calipers already (have a little metal lathe in the garage for making telescope parts).

An inexpensive option might be to get a CMP M1 Garand, and possibly have it refinished or at least checked out by a gunsmith. Aside from the use of a magazine and .308 instead of .30-06, are there other improvements to the M1A over a Garand?

Thanks again...

 

[Kaylee]

Aside from the use of a magazine and .308 instead of .30-06, are there other improvements to the M1A over a Garand?

The gas system is the real biggie I think. Shorter, lighter, no great big long op-rod going all the way out to the muzzle.

As to the rest, I think a rifle with an m14 gas system, "short action" M14 reciever length, but M1 loading system would make a just dandy woods rifle.

Anyhow, given the choice between 10-round box mags and 8-round enbloc clips, I rather think you're better off with the latter. Almost as much capacity, quicker to load, cheaper, lighter, and best of all no "detatchable mag" evilness, so it'll likely be a while ere CA gets around to trying to outlaw it.

 

[ECVMatt]

Hello there...

Most of us out here like the M1a's, I have a Scout, Mini-14, or the SU 16 types. There are also several new AR variants coming out soon that will be CA legal.

You may use your rifle with a HI-Cap mag if you owned it prior to the ban. You may not bring them into the state however. I have lived here all my life and stocked up on mags before the ban, so I have lots of mags on hand. How they prove when you got them and how they got here I do not know.

Most folks check their HC mags for relaibility and then use 10 rounders for the range.

I would go with the M1A. Mine is a great shooter and the scout size is perfect for most situations.

I recently purchased a 580 series mini-14 and it is great as well! It is a vast improvement over the older models. It is not as accurate as my AR-15, but more than enough to have tons of fun with and keep my family safe while camping and desert bumbing.

Hope this helps you,

Matt

 

[Wedge]

http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15

Check the stickies at the top, here is one written by DaveInFloweryBranchGA a member here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238214

Also the NRA sells a book called The NRA Guide to Reloading: http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Product.aspx?productid=PB 01779

Good luck! THR has a lot of great sources in the Reloading section, just check out the stickies and search I am sure that someone has asked about it. Send me a PM if you want more info on what I did.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Welcome!

I definitely recommend a Garand. From the CMP while they are still available.

-Relatively inexpensive surplus ammo
-You can use it to compete in high power matches
-Fast reloading with enblock clips
-"The greatest battle implement ever devised" -Patton-
-A perfect "only rifle" IMHO



In your price range, an M1A is also a great option.

 

[ocabj]

Get an M14 clone since you want to use it for all-round use (including SHTF). It's more versatile than the Garand with respects to optics.

If you want a target gun, then the Garand is better since it is cheaper to accurize a Garand. You should be able to build a NM Garand for about the cost of a basic model Springfield M1. If you want a National Match M14, it's going to set you back at least $2000 (especially if you want the rear lugged receiver).

 

[rangerruck]

that is all fine and good, but first, i would get two 22's, one bolt and one semiauto, so that you can learn about rifles, and shoot very cheap. Learn to hold, diff firing positions, trigger technique, sight picture, sight adjustment, the diff problems, and fail to fires, fail to eject problems. you could get them both used, in apawnshop or gunshop for 200-250 dollars.

 

[Squidward]

Given your requirements and the move to CA, I'd suggest the Garand... But, get a good .22 also. You could afford both and stay w/in budget.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Get an SKS and save for an AR-15.

 

[Inner Monkey]

My 2 Cents…

How about an M1 Carbine? I believe they are CA Legal. CMP will have these pretty soon & they are sweet shooters. They handle very fast & are very light. They feel/handle like a Ruger 10/22.

I have an old restored Postal Meter & plan to add a couple more to my collection when they become available via CMP.

If I were choosing between the PTR-91 & a FAL I would flip a coin. They are both great & I have shot them both. I have an 18” DSA STG-58. The system is a proven winner. The STG-58 is built on a DSA receiver with Austrian mil-spec parts. That rifle has a lot going for it.

The PTR-91 is a direct blow-back system that will not fail. Basically there is nothing to fail.

But the CA thing is a bit of a wet blanket for sure.

Another option would be to go with an AK variant. You could always sell it when moving to CA or store it with a friend out of state. A Vector under-folder would be a terrific SHTF rifle.

Also with the limited availability of .308 ammo these days the .30-06 looks pretty good. A Garand would be a great rifle. I have a buddy with a tanker Garand & it is sweet. It has a forward scout mount. He has 1-4 scope on it & it is a really neat set-up.

Just food for thought.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

When I lived in CA, I had a Garand, and thought it the best option in the circumstance.

If you want to get clever with it, you can also buy a Garand and have it built up as an 18"-20" by a _good_ gunsmith. There are crappy "Tanker" Garands out there, but one made by a good smith should be slick, CA-legal, and still cost far less than a DSA FAL. Would cost far, far less than a Springfield shorty M1A

In order to avoid offending the Mil-Surp gods, you can buy a stripped receiver from CMP and have a Short Garand built up on that, so you're not trashing a working Garand.

Or if you want a tiny carbine, you can wait for CMP to get M1 Carbines in, but nobody knows what quantity/quality/price they'll have.

-MV

 

[rojoko]

Rifle choice and econmoics

Cheapest .308 I built/had was based on an old Eddystone 30-06 action..

Took the action, replaced the barrel.. tune to your budget... still and all in all can be a VERY fine shooting rifle and even good enough for the NRA Hi Power matches out to 5/600 yards depending. We shot ours to 600..

I used that Eddystone through at least one hard year of high power shooting before I went on to something else. I had no complaints about it other then the way the action cycled... shot just as nice as a lot of very expensive rifles... and I liked it better then a European Match rifle I shot one season... very VERY expensive (Nope, I didn't pay for it and it had to be returned).

I also did my own stock work (a thankless job)... so you'd be supprised how cheap you can build a decent rifle for, even having someone else do the work... and if you can spend the money, there's several things you can do to the action to really get great accuracy out of them!

And also depending.. on how far you want to go with handloading.. this helps quite a lot.. especially if you want to go the distance!

For my match rifles.. I go the entire 9 yards.. including neck trimming, primer hole cleaning and trimming, etc etc etc etc etc.. and every darn round I shot out of my match rifles was hand loaded on an old RCBS Rock Chucker - one at a time! I'd never load match rifle ammo on a progressive press (and yet I will do pistol all day long on one).. I just had to make SURE with my rifle ammo!

 

[Essex County]

Knee jerk reaction tells me AR 15. Upon some thought I think you might be best served by a good scoped bolt gun and a bunch of practice. I'm thinking a Savage in .223 for economy. BTW the 30-30 sugestion is also a viable choice..Essex

 

[mkh100]

Garand from CMP. In fact you can have the M1 Garand re-barreled in 308 if you like and that would give you a NEW barrel. M1 Garand $425 another $300-$400 to re-barrel and you still have enough cash to buy a case of ammo.

I would leave it alone in original 30-06 form for your needs though. If you want a pretty rifle guy the most expensive Garand they have right now at $425 then spend a hundred or so on a replacement stock, and 2 cases of ammo and callit done.

I got really interested in practical Rifle shooting over the past year. I started attending Appleseed shoots and have seen firsthand the practicality of the M1. In practiced hands you are NOT short changing yourself.....in fact in a low prone position the lack of an extended mag becomes an asset. M1 Garand shooters ALWAYS seem to keep right up with all the rest in timed fire drills. If I had it to do over again I would start out with the Garand.....its the obvious choice for slave states anyway.

On a related note, I would like to have an AR......but would never CHOOSE one for defensive purposes. I will get flamed on this probably but AR's are still perhaps one of the most problematic rifle's we see at our shoots. If you choose one you really need to learn the rifle backwards and forward so you can fix it when it goes down....and it likely will go down. Im really not busting on them, I would like to have a couple, but they are underpowered (read black hawk down) they require an inordinant amount of maintenance IMO, and you have a round that penetrates cover poorly and looses punch at distance. And here is the clencher .... to have one in Kali you have to affix the mag to the gun and load by opening the gun up ??? Try that in a post katrina shootout.

Mike

 

[nobody_special]

Ok, I'll resurrect this thread to get some more input. I'm looking carefully at M14 clones and M1 Garands... just considering possibilities.

One other possibility - the Saiga .308s look like a great deal! I don't normally like AKs for 2 reasons - inaccuracy, and I don't care for the strange safety. But I read the .308 Saigas have an extra lug on the barrel extension which makes them more accurate. Unfortunately, with an AK action, I presume they might be illegal in CA (where AKs are specifically banned). But I know that some AR lowers are CA-legal for the moment, due to some ruling that the list of banned weapons must be specific. The question is, how specific? Does anyone know if the Saiga .308s are ok for California? (Of course, I don't want to be a "legal guinea pig" so better safe than sorry if there's any question. And there's no guarantee that they won't be banned at some point, anyway.)

I followed some advice from another thread and read in "Boston's Gun Bible." The author does not recommend SA, and instead suggests a forged receiver from LRB or a Norinco / Polytech and having it re-worked. I also saw this thread which suggests that the cast receivers are actually fine. Anyway, the imports apparently aren't available anymore (or at least not available for ~$600 anymore... there are two on gunbroker). LRB receivers are about $1k a pop, which would probably make for a rifle as expensive as Fulton Armory's... $2200-$2500 or thereabouts. That's a lot of money; consider how many Saigas or CMP Garands that could buy...

Against Boston T. Party's recommendation, I find myself looking at the Springfield M1A, either the "loaded standard" or the "scout squad." I like the idea of a "scout squad" but with the NM trigger and sights that come in the "loaded standard" version. I presume those parts could be upgraded. An M1A rifle alone would be about $1400 plus ~$100 in tax.

How significant is the ballistic difference between .308 in an 18" bbl as opposed to 22"? I couldn't find much hard data, other than these articles. From the charts, I'd estimate about an 80 to 100 fps difference. The short barrel could also have an accuracy advantage with less vibration, though whether or not that'd be seen is another story since other factors may dominate. What do you think?

Are the Springfields (or any of the rifles under discussion here) rated or safe to use with actual .308 Winchester ammunition, or do they require NATO-spec 7.62 with the lower chamber pressure? Surplus 7.62 NATO ammunition is essentially unavailable these days...

I also like the approach that MatthewVanitas mentioned... I could get a CMP receiver (newly refinished, and all for $150!) and have a Garand built. It looks reasonably inexpensive, and I'd have a nice new gun. I'm thinking 30-06 might be better if I go for a long-barreled target gun using heavier bullets for long range shooting; otherwise, .308 if I opt for an 18" barrel. I do prefer the idea of an M14 clone to a Garand.

Or I could get a CMP Garand receiver and a Saiga .308. If I end up in California, I can sell the Saiga (if necessary) and have a rifle built on the receiver.

Hmm... decisions, decisions... :banghead: