SA58 Para Elite Compact - Is it Worth $3k?

[Boba Debt]

I'm trying to decide between a DSA FAL and a PTR 91

The FAL that has the features that I like the best is the SA58 Para Elite Compact, but once you add the scope mount, railed hand guard, BUIS and a optic it would end up costing $3k

I can buy two PTR-91 KFM4's with BUIS and Optics for the same price.

Is the DSA that better that it's worth twice as much?

I'm going to eventually buy two MBRs chambered in 308 so I'll have to give this a lot of thought.

I handled an Enterprise FAL this weekend and was sorely disappointed. It was heavy, I couldn’t reach the safety and the mag release didn’t feel right.

I haven't handled a DSA or a PTR yet but if the DSA is anything like the Enterprise it will be an easy decision.

BTW: I will eventully have two Kel-Tec RFBs and they take FAL mags. It would be nice to share mags so that is the only reason I am even looking at FALs.

 

[Z-Michigan]

You don't want a PTR-91, really. You especially don't want one from current production. Just read that company's warranty/FAQ page and you'll know enough to figure out why.

I handled an Enterprise FAL this weekend and was sorely disappointed. It was heavy, I couldn’t reach the safety and the mag release didn’t feel right.

The Entreprise FAL I have, with the 21" barrel, is not heavy. If you think it's heavy, you may want to reconsider the whole idea of a .308 semiauto rifle. Pick up a DPMS LR-308 with the 24" barrel, or an AR-10 with one of the 26" match stainless barrels, to start getting an idea of heavy. The safety is easy to reach if you install DSA's extended safety. The mag release is a fact of life on the FAL, and is not as convenient as the pushbutton on an AR. (However, the Israeli-style release on a SA-58 is slightly easier to use than the standard metric release on the Entreprise.) If you don't like an FAL mag release, you will really, really hate a PTR-91 mag release.

BTW: I will eventully have two Kel-Tec RFBs and they take FAL mags. It would be nice to share mags so that is the only reason I am even looking at FALs.

This is borderline silly, especially proclaiming that you'll have TWO RFBs. Have you shot one? What if they don't really come to market? What if they come to market and turn out to be junk?

SA58 Para Elite Compact, but once you add the scope mount, railed hand guard, BUIS and a optic it would end up costing $3k

You're looking at this DSA model, right?

http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-PARA-Elite-Compact-Rifle-308-Cal----SA58ELITE/productinfo/SA58ELITE/

The scope mount is $80. The $200+ railed handguard, of which I have one (the real-deal DSA), is not worth it, skip it. You don't need BUIS because the FAL has good sights built in, including the model above. The optic cost is up to you.

BTW, you have no idea what kind of pain you will experience shooting a .308 with a 13" barrel and a muzzle device. The blast is almost incredible. If you like licking the amp stacks at a Slayer concert, maybe it's for you. There is enough noise with my 18" FALs. I have shot a 14.5" .308 (POF-308) with a brake and it was painful from 20 feet away. A 14.5" or 13" barrel is not a practical choice.

If you're just dripping money for .308 rifles, I would look at the LMT MWS, the Knight's SR-25, the SCAR-17H, and maybe the POF-308. They're all over $2k (well, well over for the SR-25), all high end nice rifles, three of the four have readily available reasonably priced mags, and the same three also have real military credentials.

On the FAL side, FALs are terrific rifles and DSA makes the best, IMHO (based on owning several of theirs and several others). But you don't need to spend anywhere near $3k to get a great FAL. The currently available for $1000 "IMBEL Rifle" from DSA is a great rifle, for $1k. Spend $80 on a scope mount and whatever for an optic, and you're in business for well under $2k.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Two things to add:

1) Here's PTR-91's warranty and technical info:

http://ptr91.com/techinfo.html

Really, some lots of German ammo don't work in this rifle that is copied on the West German Army's service rifle? How did you manage that? Would it be the same DAG ammo that's flawless when used in most any FAL or M1A? (Not to mention that half their list of unacceptable ammo is considered among the best FAL/M1A ammo.)

2) I previously owned a PTR-91, standard model with 18" barrel, so I comment from experience. Despite the relatively modest 18" barrel it is pig-on-a-shovel heavy out front, due to poor balance - far worse than any standard barrel 21" FAL. The pushbutton mag release is part of a Rube-Goldberg kludge mandated by the ATF to make it more difficult to convert to full auto, and it does not work easily the way that a similar looking AR-15 mag release button works. The charging handle works well for people who are at least seven feet tall or have 40"+ sleeve length. Likewise, the thumb safety is good if your glove size is at least 4XL (I wear 2XL gloves, literally, and could not readily manipulate it).

 

[Boba Debt]

Thanks for all the info, I appreciate your post but I have to ask why it's silly to claim that I will buy 2 RFBs????

I already have two 7.62 AK Bull Pups, a Saiga 410 Bull Pup and I'm about to convert a WASR-22 into the same Bull Pup configuration for my wife. In the not to distant future I will buy two RFBs and in when they come out I'll buy two KSGs.

RFBs are available so it's just a matter of spending the money.

Some people think it's silly to standardize your calibers and mags, but I find it's much easier to keep track of everything. I have a friend that has about 30 guns in a 16 gun safe and it takes him an hour just to pull one rifle out the back of it. He has every caliber imaginable and has ammo all over his house. Its such a mess that he just basically shoots one of his rifles and a couple of his pistols. He has guns in the back that he hasn't even fired yet. Seems awfully wasteful.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I just think it's silly because (I'm assuming) you haven't shot one yet, and I know from experience I often get surprises both good and bad from guns I haven't previously tried. I could be assuming wrong, of course. I also note that the RFB doesn't seem to be in really full-scale production, so it's somewhat unpredictable what you'll get if you're buying them in the future. I've certainly read positive reviews, but I know that I was hoping to buy one over 2 years ago, when they supposedly would have been in full production, and they still seem to be hen's teeth.

By all means, if you know that's what you want, get two, fine. I fully understand and appreciate the logic of having two of models you like, vs. one each of so many models you lose track.

 

[Boba Debt]

I have a hook up for the RFBs so for me it's just a matter of spending the money.

I'm sure I'll like them, I'm fond of the smaller more compact platforms.

Here are some images on my 7.26 and 410 bull pups.







It's the huge proven platforms such as the Springfield Socom, FAL, AR10, etc that feel cumbersome to me, but eventually I want two full sized MBRs so I'll just have to learn how to use them.

 

[Boba Debt]

It’s looking bad for the PTR-91.


It seems that they have the same ergonomic issues that the FALs have


This guy got a great deal, I'd buy two of these tomorrow at this price

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9758576&oh=216543

 

[Z-Michigan]

My 2 cents is that an 18" barrel is the sweet spot for a .308, whether you get an FAL or M1A or AR-pattern. 16" is a little short and blasty, and longer than 18" is great except for handiness. If you really want a short barrel, I highly recommend you try one out first, the blast is amazing. I've shot a 50 BMG before at the same range and I'd rather shoot a 50 BMG with a typical brake than a 14.5" .308 with a 2-port brake like that POF I shot.

 

[Boba Debt]

I agree that the 18" barrel is better balistically but I like the rail system on the Para Elite and I don't think they have one for the standard length gas system.

 

[HorseSoldier]

It seems that they have the same ergonomic issues that the FALs have

Unless you're an orangutan, the FAL is far superior to the G3 in terms of ergonomics.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Here's the DSA rail system for a standard length FAL (with a 16, 18 or 21" barrel):

http://www.dsarms.com/FAL-Rail-Interface-Handguard-Full-Length----US021FAS/productinfo/US021FAS/

I own this exact quadrail. I don't like it that much. It's bulky and heavy, like many rail systems, and it's not a free-float setup unlike many AR15 quadrails. If you absolutely need a quadrail, this is the best one for the FAL. I would not get it unless you know which exact items are going on the quadrail and you have no other way of mounting them. The standard plastic FAL handguards are a good size and shape, IMHO.

 

[sturmgewehr]

If you have $3k burning a hole in your pocket, buy a SCAR 17s. If you want it short, send it off to hi-desertdog and have the barrel bobbed for $200. You can get the proper SCAR-H muzzle brake for $114 on Midway.

I wouldn't pay $3k for a FAL clone...

 

[roundoff]

SCAR 17s looks like a nice rifle, but I can't find it in stock anywhere. I decided to go with a lower price point for my first rifle purchase, but I still have my eye on it.

 

[Girodin]

What if they don't really come to market? What if they come to market and turn out to be junk?

They have already come to market, albeit in small numbers. If one really wanted to acquire two RFBs right now they could. The wisdom of buying two depends on a lot of factors, and considering we don't know many things about the OP it is impossible to gauge the wisdom of it for him.

I would not pay $3K for a FAL, but I see you are including the optic in that price. What is the price w/o an optic. Personal for less than $3K I would be eying the FAL over any of the big 3 .308 semis, or over any of the less common contenders. The SCAR has some notable advantages over all of them. I have also been very impressed with the FN products I've used.

 

[stubbicatt]

Whichever you get, I hope you enjoy it.

I personally prefer the PTR91, having had both. I watch people bag on one design or another, and I don't generally find such posts persuasive. My advice to people on issues of ergonomics is to pick up the rifle and futz with it in the store to see how it works for you. A common criticism of the PTR91 is the lack of a paddle mag release, an oversight which can be remedied by $100 and a trip to Bill Springfield in Colorado.

IME, the sights on the PTR are better than the FAL, and the rifle dissipates heat better. It is also much easier to clean.

Some of the models put out by them have had issues with shooting certain types of ammunition. It is my understanding that the chamber fluting issues which led to these issues has been revised in recently manufactured examples. Since I handload anyways, these issues don't particularly affect me.

My example is starting to look a little bit used, but it still shoots right where I aim it.

Too for awhile there there were many accessories and furniture for the 91 type rifles due to the German army outprocessing so many of them from inventory. I have been very happy with the excellent 4 power scope and the 22 long rifle conversion kits I picked up a few years back for this rifle. Magazines are still quite inexpensive, and by any measure, are superior to those of the FAL.

Regards...

 

[Snakum]

Having recently conducted a rather methodical search for an accurate, cost-effective .308 battle rifle I can copy and paste what I found about the two - STG58 vs. PTR91:

FAL - more expensive than PTR locally, generally not as accurate as HK platform by .5 - 1MOA, heats up and sprays more quickly than std HK platform, feels like it swings less quickly for CQB, feels much better/excellent ergos, better balance, way cool factor and looks good, can be hard to stay clear of crap aftermarket parts or mix up mags without knowledgeable help.

PTR - generally more accurate than FAL with similar ammo, difficult to find repeatable scope mount, local examples very heavy, trigger is horrid but can be fixed, lots of after market support, hugely reliable (almost AK-like reliability), chews up brass (can't spare my good 308 brass for reloading), excellent prices locally, model with already-railed forearm and receiver rail available locally, SC model swings and points very fast (great CQB), rear sight sucks to me.

Just random notes from my search, based on searching internet for hours, asking friends who've owned both, and handling and shooting both. I actually went with a Saiga 308 for an SDM build which will be as accurate as the PTR91, probably more reliable than either, and should be lighter than both when finished.

Still want a fluted, railed PTR91 SC and a folding stocked para FAL. Maybe I'll win the lottery soon.

 

[BloodyCactus]

- ptr will eat your brass for breakfast with its roller design, making reloading more work. (if you dont reload, it wont matter)
- ptr has no bolt hold open on last shot (I like a BHO but its not a real detraction if you can count rounds)
- more people perceive the felt recoil on the ptr is greater than on the fal, but it can be subjective, if you like shooting a garand, then the recoil on the ptr wont matter, but imo the ptr's roller locking recoil is stiffer/greater than the fal

 

[Robert]

I wouldn't pay $3k for a FAL clone...

This. And I love FALs. For $3k you can buy a LaRue OBR or a JP LRP-07. Both are far, far superior to the FAL and PTR91 combined. It is your money so do as you wish.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Snakum, BC, Boba Debt... as I've already mentioned, I've owned both FAL and PTR-91. Stubbicatt has too, and there are maybe one or two other people on here who have also. I would search "FAL PTR-91" and each of our usernames for lots more firsthand info on the two rifles and how they compare. I have an opposite opinion from Stubbicatt, but at least we're both speaking from experience.

As for balance and swing, if I took any one of my 21" FALs and put a 1lb weight at the end of the barrel, it would be almost as front-heavy and poor swinging as the PTR I used to have. Neither rifle is a serious "CQB" rifle for anyone with a serious need for such a thing.

On mags, G3 (PTR) mags are still cheaper and much more plentiful, and they are possibly a sturdier design. But the FAL mag design is plenty sturdy and as battle-tested as the AK47 mag, is still readily available and costs the same or less than new .308 rifle mags at $18-20 for VG to excellent condition mags.

 

[Snakum]

As for balance and swing, if I took any one of my 21" FALs and put a 1lb weight at the end of the barrel, it would be almost as front-heavy and poor swinging as the PTR I used to have.

That would actually depend on the model. If we're talking an issue HK91 I would agree. However PTR makes a decent CQB/3-gun weapon in the PR91SC, which despite being relatively heavy felt much quicker on drills than the FAL, which was longer and more 'unwieldy'. And the 16" fluted barrel was thicker than the FAL and would likely decrease the propensity to spray when hot. If it weren't for the brass-mangling I'd actually own an SC today for 3-gun. It was sweet, but I handload.

 

[451 Detonics]

I own both a CETME which I have rebuilt from a dog to a really great rifle and an Ohio Rapid Fire FAL. The CETME is pretty standard and is my favorite .308 MBR to have optics on while the FAL is my iron sight gun.

For a MBR I prefer the ergonomics of the FAL. With an extended DSA selector it falls nicely under my thumb. 20 inch barrel + 2 inches of comp and the rifle balances very nicely at the back of the magazine well. For me at least a centered balance point is more important than barrel length, just swings better. Standard type forend and DSA X buttstock all built on an Imbel receiver. Personally I think the more stuff you hang on a gun the less useful it is. I don't own a railed forend on any firearm...lol.



I have owned HK's on and off for years, I am a school trained HK armorer and have owned 91s, 93's, and 94's including several class 3 versions...mostly Fleming's. I ended up with a CETME as part of a trade, didn't really want it but I felt I should make sure it functioned before selling it. Ended up replacing the entire BCG, and the cracked wood was replaced with HK furniture. By the time I had made it 100% reliable I had grown to like the platform again and decided to keep it scoped and in my battery. I use it for competitions were the scope is an advantage and just as a basic fun gun. It is a bit front heavy but not too bad. This spring I will probably replace the claw mount with a low mount to bring the scope down closer to the bore and stock.



Of the two if I were to sell one it would be the CETME, I firmly believe the FAL platform is the finest .308 (or 7.63X51 if you insist on being a purist) MBR ever made. I would recommend the FAL over any other .308 platform out there and I have owned or at least shot most of them including Valmets, AR platforms, M1A platforms, AK platforms, etc.