Rifle for dummies

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'm in that "faction" so I guess I'll bite. I had a main battle rifle once, when I was in the Army. The guy said nothing about doing any battle. I think people suggest that, myself included, because we assume that not everyone is preparing for the Red Dawn.

I hunt quite often, but battle very little. Which is the more appropriate arm?

Yes; but our poster here asked for a rifle for self-defense and range practice. Most hunting guns have thin barrels that will start walking shots after 3-5 rounds downrange in fairly rapid order. You won't get much range practice if you have to stop and let the barrel cool every 3-5 shots.

An intermediate caliber like an SKS will do just fine for hunting out to 200yds (which is further than 99% of the shots taken around here), is cheaper to buy ammo for, and you can practice with it a lot without having to wait for the barrel to cool down.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The recoil of the M1 Garand is noticeable. But it certainly ins't anything that should pose a provlem. I've seen young teenagers (14, 15 years old, boys and girls) learn to shoot a Garand well, with nothing more than an afternoon of proper instruction.

Proper instruction is priceless. You can get some great instruction for free simply by looking up the NRA Highpower shooters group in your area. They usually offer clinics for new shooters. Not only will they teach you how to properly shoot a Garand, the clinic will fulfill the CMP's requirement for participation in a marksmanship activity.

Take up the sport of highpower competition. You'll learn more in a seasion of competitive highpower than many shooters learn their whole lives.

 

[rangerruck]

anything in 762 russian, 223, 308, 30.06 or 6.5 swedish will be pretty cheap to shoot, theswe all have surplus ammo that you can get at gunshows.

 

[epijunkie67]

Are there any pistol cal rifles legal in CA? Guy says he is new and needs something for the range. I'm guessing a cheap to feed low recoil pistol caliber rifle might be a good place to start. Not nearly as much power as an SKS I admit (well, unless he gets a .44) but they can be really great learning tools.

If you want a rifle caliber and money's going to be an issue then I have to admit that an SKS can make sense. You have the added disadvantage of living in CA which is going to really restrict your options for a lot of other guns.

What about going a slightly different route? Something like a marlin 60 or a 10/22 to get started with and adding in a simple pump shotgun for defense? You could get in plenty of range time with the .22 and work on your skills and I think few people would argue the shotgun is a less then adaquite defense. Total cost for both (around here) of about $300 for used stuff up to about $400-450 new.

Whichever gun you get I still recommend getting a .22 of some kind. I think in the long run you'll be glad you did.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I hadn't brought up the Garand at first, because it's a bit of a "step above" the SKS and Kel-Tec.

Twice the price of the SKS (but still an absolute steal at $400), more recoil (but not bad by any means), not as agile in tight quarters, and ammo costs 25c/shot vice 12c.

However, the Garand is far more powerful than SKS, has probably quadruple the range, infinitely better sights, and is still durable as all-git-out.

Kind of an apples-to-oranges situation. You can't go wrong picking a good example of either. Bear in mind that if you buy one of the more worn examples of Garand from CMP, you can get it rebarreled to .308 if the barrel turns out to be less accurate than you need. That way you get a fresh barrel, and in a cartridge which should be widely available on the mil-surp market for years to come.

Aside from whatever ammo the CMP has in their warehouse, the only other mil-surp 30-06 on the market now is 1970s Korean surplus. Once that runs out, no idea if the Colombians or whoever will dig more out, or if we'll be SOL on the cheap 30-06 front.

I've owned both Garand and SKS. Garand was a far nicer weapon overall, but SKS is cheap and handy.

-MV

 

[mrmeval]

Single shot rifle in .223. Cheap ammo, easy to shoot, easy to clean.

 

[jd25q]

Yes; but our poster here asked for a rifle for self-defense and range practice. Most hunting guns have thin barrels that will start walking shots after 3-5 rounds downrange in fairly rapid order. You won't get much range practice if you have to stop and let the barrel cool every 3-5 shots.

You are correct about all that. And I missed his "sd" request the first time I read his post. Given that I would suggest a pump shotgun and a .22 rifle. Best of both worlds, with no compromises. Absolutely the cheapest to shoot for practice (short of an air rifle), and the most effective longarm for home defense.

The most encouraging thing for a new shooter is hitting your target. I just don't think the SKS is the easiest thing to accomplish that with.

 

[Squidward]

Again, thank you all for the input. Now for full disclosure:
I have an 870 and a 10/22, both of which I can detail strip. And, I shoot them regularly. But, I'm by no means a knowledgable armorer. I just took the time to learn about and care for the equipment I own.

That said, I'd like to get a rifle that is reliable, simple in construction and easy to work on. The SKS and Garand sound like the most recommended. Which of these best fits my criteria.

As an aside, I've started getting interested in the historical past of these weapons as a result of your recommendations. (oh, oh. This could be a problem!)

 

[High Planes Drifter]

The SKS will be all around cheaper to own/shoot. And for a hundred yard gun and hd weapon, it will fill its role rather well.

The M1 would be more of a "riflemans" rifle. It fires an extremely powerfull caliber, and comes with what most consider the finest iron sights on a firearm. But for home defense application, overpenetration would be a major concern; .30-06 will go thru a soft human torso at 5 yards(in-house distance) with little loss of power. In the 'burbs this is dangerous. If this is not a concern for you, its hard to go wrong with an M1.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You can also reduce overpenetration concerns in the full caliber rifles to some degree by using specialized ammo like a 150gr ballistic tip; but it is still likely to go in one side, out the other and continue a ways.

If you are NOT limited by budget, then take a look at the Springfield M1A. It is Cali-legal, uses a more common, cheaper ammo (.308), has detachable magazines and shorter barrel lengths; but otherwise has a lot in common with the Garand. If budget is an issue then SKS or CMP Garand is definitely the way to go with the SKS being significantly cheaper if you plan to shoot a lot just due to ammo costs.

 

[Brother in Arms]

Everyone has made some good points. But I think I should clarify some of my reasoning. Here is what Squid stipulated

"I'm interested in buying a rifle for SD and range practice. I do not have alot of knowledge or tools, so I'm looking for a rifle that is reliable, has few parts and easy to work on if something breaks. I intend to leave it in stock condition. I'm open minded as to caliber, but I am thinking .223 or 7.62X39.

Money is always a factor, but If something fits the bill I'm willing to spend some cash. Any advise that you can offer is greatly appreciated"

He said he wants "a rifle that is reliable and has few parts and is easy to work on". Both the SKS and M1 fit this description. Gun digest eploded gun drawings list the SKS as having 71 parts but shows the bayonet and cleaning rod to we are down to 69 parts. The same book list the M1 as having 48 parts( but shows the rear sight as an assebly) however the M1 does have slightly less parts than the SKS. Both firarms have many available parts and both are great in stock configuration.

Squid also stipulated something that is "..easy to work on if something breaks. I intend to leave it in stock condition. I'm open minded as to caliber, but I am thinking .223 or 7.62X39"

Both rifles are easy to work on if something breaks. He sates that he is opened minded to calibers it seems he is interested in Carbine calibers like .223 or 7.62x39mm. Whereas .30-06 or .308 are full power rifle cartridges. But neither round is hard to shoot.

As far as comercial rifles go rather have a military rifle than almost any sporting rifle. I have worked on many sporting rifles and they often have more hiccups than military rifles. They are not as easy to take apart and often have parts that are easier to loose or break. I don't recomend lever action rifles.

Also Squidward has an 870 so he already has a home defense gun. Also the price of 7.62x39mm has been going up and getting harder to find due to the bogus shortage. I realized .30-06 surplus is drying (dried) but having one rebarreled in .308 would be awesome. Though I don't think that surplus .308 is going to be available for years to come at least not at rock bottom prices.

I see the M1 as better than the M1A for california purposes. The M1A is $1200+ a reasonable CMP M1, can be had for less than half that. Sure 7.62 NATO is currently cheaper and more availble than .30-06 but you could have a CMP M1 converted to 7.62NATO for alot less than $1200. Detachable mags is not a reason to buy an M1A if all you can use is a 10 shot mag. I can reload an 8 round M1 clip slightly faster than I can a M14 magazine which is fine when the mag has 20 rounds , you don't have to reload as much but when its half that it doesn't seem worth doing. You can mount a scope on a M1A alot easier than on an M1. That is one thing the M1A has going for the M1 doesn't. Mounting a scope on an SKS also sucks.

This is getting long so I will wrap it up with The M1 is more exspensive than a SKS for sure. But it is a Rifle where the SKS is more of a carbine. So depending on if you want long range and accuracy or shorter range and less acuracy. Also price is a consideration, the SKS wins hands down. The M1 is more expensive but still affordable and you wont be able to buy them from CMP forever.

I am not in favor of one rifle or another as I have both rifles. My first rifle was an SKS and it truely is a fine piece of machinery. But If I had access to an M1 as my first rifle I would be a better shot today. I wouldn't even put the Keltec SU16 on the list as they are unreliable.


Sorry to write so much.
Brother in Arms

 

[Koobuh]

"I'm interested in buying a rifle for SD and range practice. I do not have alot of knowledge or tools, so I'm looking for a rifle that is reliable, has few parts and easy to work on if something breaks. I intend to leave it in stock condition. I'm open minded as to caliber, but I am thinking .223 or 7.62X39.
Money is always a factor, but If something fits the bill I'm willing to spend some cash. Any advise that you can offer is greatly appreciated."

You want a Mosin-Nagant bolt action rifle and a bunch of hollowcore 7.62x54R ammunition.
Get thee to a local Big-5 and take a look at what they have; they will have 91/30s, M38s, and M44s. All go on sale every few weeks for less than $100.
I would personally get an M44 (my first rifle ), and a few boxes of commercial ammo to practice with until you can have some ammo shipped to you.
Then go looking for 7.62x54R hollowcore ammunition online or at a local gunshow and buy some to use and practice with. It kicks about as hard as .223 or 7.62x39, and is plenty accurate for home defense.
Disassembly and cleaning are about as challenging as unbuckling your seatbelt after the first time, which will be required to clean all the preservative cosmoline out of it.


Best value for the money for guns, bar none.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Then go looking for 7.62x54R hollowcore ammunition online or at a local gunshow and buy some to use and practice with. It kicks about as hard as .223 or 7.62x39, and is plenty accurate for home defense.

The Mosins deliver a fair value for their price. But they are clumsy, crude and slow to operate, which makes them a very poor choice for home defense. All of the surplus 7.62x54R is corrosive, which makes cleaning and maintaining them quite a chore.

And how on earth can you think that 7.62x54R recoils about the same as a 223?????

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think I would agree with most of the points HTG made and add that you had better have a good idea of your background; because even with hollowpoint ammo, 7.62x54R is going to travel a ways.

 

[Squidward]

Thank you

Thanks to all that reponded. Especially those of you who supported your position with data.I have decided to go with the SKS.

Given my criteria the SKS seems to fit the bill and the prices are right. But, Christmas is coming, and a Garand would be- grand!

 

[Brother in Arms]

Good deal squid
SKS's are good, first rifle I ever owned. Good to see you increasing your firearms inventory.

Brother in Arms